Not to impose on a game I don't currently run, but just my two cents. I strongly believe keyboards and controllers should be in separate categories across the boards. We're in a debate over doing something like that for the NG series, as well as banning the GOTVG emulator, which Xiu used for his NG3 WR run, and removing all runs that are known to be using that emulator. GOTVG is an emulator that allows specific inputs that other emulators dont. Xiu has admitted to using those "cheat" strats with a keyboard for his WR. Not to self-promote, but If you want to know more about the discussion, check out the NG3 forum post I created for removing keyboards.

Keyboards have something like a 0.42ms input registration increase from a real console and allow for easier inputs in certain situations. For example, in Ninja Gaiden, the mashing. On a controller, to get really good mashing, its hard to do cause of how you have to position your hands and sync things. With a keyboard, that action is infinitely easier. Not all games benefit so much from keyboards, but many do.

@kororowolf your English is great! You've been a huge help in figuring out some solutions. I really appreciate your help on this matter. I think it's important to get feedback from other Chinese runners on this since I personally know very little about Chinese emulators.

Sounds like a good plan. I fully support all these changes.

Perhaps placing keyboards and controllers into separate categories? Looking at a few other forums for different games, it seems like they're working on doing the same thing. You can hook up a keyboard to console or use an emulator. How would we know? We'd have to work with the honor system on it, and as Riche pointed out, if there's suspicion, talk to the runner and find out.

I agree, Riche nailed it. Would still love to see keyboards in their own category or banned. I don't see it happening though, as it doesn't seem to be a popular option.

Haha, that's hilarious. Was wondering who made it. I know Garadas had made one on a different game.

Here is the link to one of the main NG Discords. https://discord.gg/NMH9PHe

Not sure about any others. I did notice one of my DIscords is gone though. Might have been a NG related one.

I would say we remove the run and then reach out to Xiu and let him know our reasons. So he doesn't feel like we just removed his run out of spite or something, which might discourage him from future runs, so long as they are done legit, on "legal" emulators or console.

That is my exact logic. The problem is not just the keyboard speed enhancements, which has been proven to be something like 0.42ms faster for every key press, or the fact it's often easier to use a keyboard for difficult maneuvers like slash cancels, mashing, wall climbs, etc. but that there is an unknown to them. We don't know if someone is cheating or not. There is literally no possible way of knowing. Simply showing the emulator window, or key inputs will not prove anything. Unless there is a camera showing their hands and the buttons being used, it's left to taking their word alone. And in speedrunning, unknowns are just asking for someone to come along and take advantage of that and cheat.

There is no easy solution for that. I don't like the idea of separating the categories, but I think for a game like NG, it might be a necessity. While as of right now, there are no known cheaters (do we call Xiu's run cheating?), this is futureproofing. What we don't want, is 5 years down the line, to find out the WR holder (whoever that might be) was cheating all along.

Well stated. With that said, how would we know people are using the keyboard category? We'd be using the honor code for that as well. There's simply no way of knowing for sure.

I agree though that the better system might be to combine the emu and consoles again, but separate keyboards and controllers.

Just wish there was a way to see what was being used. Xiu was very honest about using a keyboard, even made it clear in his runs from the typing sounds.

Are there even enough keyboard players to make a category worth it? Once Xiu's run is removed, there might only be 1 or 2 people, basically making it a meme category. Wouldn't it just be easier to ban keyboards?

Thoughts/ suggestions?

Apologies for the long-winded novel below, but I believe it's important for everyone to understand that we, as a community, are not trying to make some exclusive "console only" group just to kick others out. The only reason any of this is being discussed and actions are being taken is that certain unspoken rules have been broken that threaten the fairness of speedrunning NG3. And these are the solutions we've come up with to resolve them. I think these solutions should also be applied later to all NES games in general, but that's just me.

Let us also not stray too far from the topic at hand, which is to make speedrunning fair for all NG3 runners. I am in agreement with @AshuraBusted that not all games benefit from a use of Keyboard. Which is why it's important we stay on topic of NG3.

@FunC_Controls I agree with many of your points, which is why I said we should ban keyboards in general. Emulators, in general, provide a slight disadvantage to the player due to the input lag. However, the problem with using emulators arises when people use them for an advantage, like running them slightly faster than 60FPS, using keyboards to allow specific inputs, etc.

How do we control this? We do our best as a community to control what can and can't be used, to minimize the possibility of cheating or having an advantage. Thus, removing keyboards, banning specific emulators, and putting up rules to enforce fairness. The problem with that is that it's so hard to find out when people break the rules. How do we know if someone is using a keyboard? How do we know if they're using a specifically banned emu? Or any 10 other things that could be used to have an advantage or cheat. There is never a definitive way of knowing this unless every single run submitted has a video of the runner playing the game in a 3rd person perspective, which is out of the question.

I agree that leaving in Xiu's run is discouraging for all current and future runners. It's the main reason I started this post. I don't want to compete against someone who can "cheat" by using easy inputs when I'm over here struggling to get good at it the real way. That's not right and not fair and very discouraging. I respect his skill and the time he got, but the run should be removed regardless.

I also acknowledge that separating the categories, in general, is discouraging because no one would want to run in the emulator category since it would be considered the "meme category", but what other choices are there? Keyboard and controller? That would be treated as a meme category as well. Banning keyboards would, in my opinion, eliminate a need for separate categories altogether, so long as the other rules were put in place and Xiu's run was removed.

With that we still run into issues with the majority of the community being against banning keyboards. What steps are we to take to resolve the issues to make everyone happy? In my opinion, we stop focusing on monetary values and what makes everyone happy and do what ultimately is the fairest for everyone and best for the community. Speedrunning is a hobby, profession, and career for many. It is a fun hobby, but it is also a record, for all of history. It can be expensive in both time and money. Certain sacrifices have to be made to provide the highest level of fairness overall so that records are earned through skill, hard work, and dedication alone no matter where you place on the leaderboards. That has always been my stance and it always will be.

It sucks to exclude people because they use an emulator or keyboard or guitar or whatever, especially when they are doing their absolute best to be as legit and authentic as possible. In a perfect world, we would have one category and everything would be fine. But in this world of cheating and unknown possible advantages, we must do the best we can to define clear rules, which includes banning specific things, to minimize the opportunities people have for doing so.

@EndySWE I agree 100%, I made that accusation without fully understanding the sword strike timing in NG3. After talking with many of the top NG3 runners, I've got a better understanding of things, and since have been able to replicate it without issue. So that part of my argument is completely invalid and just me being unfamiliar with NG3. But all other points, are still valid.

And I agree that Xiu's run should be removed. Regardless of whether the run was submitted beforehand or not, the fact Xiu has admitted to kokorowolf that he used inputs that are only usable in that particular emulator. The actions we take should be the same if we found out someone had done something else to take advantage of the situation and game. I think we need to talk with Xiu and find out 100% for sure before doing so.

But in regards to the Console/ Emu separation, I started this post to ban keyboards in top 10 placements as keyboards have no place in the NG series. There are too many advantages and unknowns. Whether or not we keep the categories separate is up to the community as a whole. I think as of right now, it's a huge improvement. But that is due to the issues revolving Xiu's run, as the WR holder.

Records of any kind, whether 1st place or 50th place, should be based on skill alone, not splicing, advantages, or anything else that cannot be done on real hardware. Real hardware is the gold standard for what is allowed and not allowed. If an emulator allows it and console doesn't, then that run needs to be removed. If it can be done better or faster in any way on some platform that is not a real console (emulator, VC, etc.), then that run needs to be separated into its own category or removed. And yes, I get that all emulators behave differently and all versions of consoles do as well. But you all understand the meaning I'm getting at. Typically, an emulator provides a DISAdvantage, unless it offers special button inputs or is being used with a Keyboard, hence why I want them banned for top 10 placements.

I have a high respect for all the runners including Xiu, but that alone does not change the facts or change how runs on SR should be handled. Runs that are on SR.com will be there for all of history. And people will be going against those runs for years and years to come. It's not fair for runners to go against a run that has advantages like that, whether that run is WR or not.

That's my 2 cents

I think emulation is fine. But for top 5 placements, especially top 3, I feel every single game should be run on real hardware. I may be old-fashioned or too much of a purist on this element. Speedrunning is an expensive hobby/ passion to have, both in time and money.

I hate seeing legit runners penalized because others take advantage of the system. But there is simply no easy solution to these topics, which is why they are often avoided. I agree with 100Ton and would go even further in saying that I think keyboards and specific emulators should be banned globally, on all games. But everyone has their own thoughts on this, so it will never happen.

So we come back to what the easiest, most diplomatic solution is, which was the most popular opinion by the community. Which up to this point, was category separation. Is there a better solution? Other than just removing Xius run entirely, which I think should be done anyhow, I don't see one.

That was something else! Really nice job with it! Some mad editing skills with that sled.

Really nice to see things happening! Thanks for everyone getting involved and figuring this stuff out. As a community, I feel these kinds of topics are very important.

Kokorowolf, thank you for explaining this out. Your English came through just fine. I agree that regardless of the methods used, Xiuluowentian is an amazing player, I have never believed otherwise. Which is why I don't want to see his run deflated, as it is really impressive. But aside from using the keyboard, which has advantages all on it's own, you're saying he used a specific emulator only strat to make the wall climbing even easier?

If that's the case, what is to be done? Would separating the categories (console / emulator) be enough? It seems like, while console users would have things leveled out and fair, emulator users would be forced to use the GOTVG emu with a keyboard to be on the same level. Basically just saying for emulator users, its a free for all to use whatever gives the best results.

This is a complicated issue that needs to have a solution. Further thoughts?

I personally hate the idea of separating the categories, but I think the SM64 route is a good way to go on this.

I would love to see a globally banned emulator list happen. But I know that is beyond the power of mods and this discussion alone and would more than likely, never happen.

But for the sake of NG3 (preferably the whole NG NES series), I think a ban list needs to happen at some point. Those Left + Right inputs and all. Some newer runners don't even know about the left + right inputs. I remember reading a NG2 post about a runner "discovering" a new clip. Turned out to be left + right clipping through a wall. He/she had no idea.

But if the category separation is all that happened, I'd be satisfied with that. It seems like a way to make things slightly fairer within the community.

So lets get down to brass taxes. What should be done? As a community, I think it's important to make a decision that can both be agreed upon but also remain true and pure to the art of speedrunning.

I still keep my original 3 suggestions, No keyboards allowed, New rule to ban specific emulators, separation of categories into console and emulator.

Sounds like as of now, the most agreed upon thing is to separate the categories.

Mods and community, hope to hear the rest of your weigh-ins on this so things can get taken care of.

I know the run has already been removed, but I'm just now seeing this. I would say without a doubt, the wall climbs are TASed. I have some of the fastest wall climbs in the world for NG and can't get anything remotely close to that. Based off the climbs alone I can almost for certain say it's TASed.

Just wanted to say thanks to Whitehat and the community for doing something about this.

Great information. I was unaware of the "gotvg" emulation or way it works.

So what should we do?

I'd like to see:

• New rule added that bans keyboard use in the future
• New rule added that bans specific emulators to be used
• Separation of categories - Consoles and Emulators

Keeping the two separate would be the easiest solution to keeping things as legit and fair as possible since it is relatively unknown what may or may not be going on with an emulator. At least with real hardware, the likelihood of cheating or having an advantage is lowered. Other than splicing and using a different controller, the variables are reduced. And then banning specific emulators for future use, such as this "gotvg" emulator.

Other than this, I don't know of a solution to this. There seems to be an equal number of for's and against's. One thing that seems to be agreed on by nearly everyone is that a keyboard has an advantage, whether it is minor or large, I think it should be banned for future use. Separating the categories into console and emulator would be the simplest solution of dealing with an already present run that uses a keyboard since simply discrediting the run or removing it altogether would be absurd, unless it was later discovered to not be legit.

I do agree that the boss fight I was questioning earlier, can be done on a controller, while it seems much more difficult to get, it does, in fact, seem possible. I still haven't been able to get the same speeds as AshuraBusted or Xiu on a controller...while a keyboard I could. I do not know about all the boss fights, as I haven't spent as much time practicing the current WR strats on them. But this says to me that a keyboard makes certain things easier, ie. boss fights, wall climbs, sub-weapon use, etc. That by its very definition is an advantage, whether it's large or small.

In speedrunning, that is akin to performance-enhancing in sports, which is not allowed.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

I think it's just in your head. I can kill him equally fast in both versions, just nowhere near as fast as you did. Guess my timing is off on the slashes.