Hey guys,

A lot of the SA runners may know me as a regular watcher of SA streams.

Since duping started i've gotten less interested in any% watching. In general I prefer categories with no big skip/warp glitches ( like Yoshi island warpless/100% and zelda:OOT 100 %) so i've been watching a lot more all missions as well.

I find it odd that a serious category is shoved away under misc as if it's not as important.

I'm behind All Missions as a new category and would be up for regulating it on the leaderboards if i'm allowed too.

Greetings,

Warcryptic

I agree, for consistency's sake. (III and VC)

I agree, there is no reason for it to be misc.

This was Cyber's, mine and S's conversation about "All Missions" http://www.speedrun.com/gtasa/thread/surht/1#2p8ol

I agree with Kyle in that we need to be consistent, therefore, I have moved the category in VC and 3 to misc.

"I find it odd that a serious category is shoved away under misc as if it's not as important. "

This part of my post seems to be ignored, and your quick reply moving VC & 3 under misc more shows how much you don't care about this category, which is fine but you basically shove other runners away as not as important.

Arbitrary categories like all tags are logical, but all missions is bigger then doing any% so from that viewpoint I would sooner shove any% under misc. But I think there's enough place for all 3 of them on the front.

OK, so Vice City "Any% 7 Assets" should be a main category too, even though only three people have done runs of it ever. Makes sense...

not really.

If anything, All Missions always was a misc category in every GTA game. There were created as 100% practice categories. I have to admit that I did take VC all missions quite seriously for a time, but even though all of the GTA All Missions categories have clear-cut definitions, they have no place being main categories. Sure, they aren't "meme" or gimmick categories, but that doesn't automatically mean it is on the same level as Any% or 100%.

Yes, I know that people care about All Missions a lot more than 100 Tags, or to reference VC again, a lot more than All Unique Stunt Jumps. That doesn't change the fact that there is nothing about All Missions that you can consider as "game completion", except that you do Any% as part of All Missions. Beating the final mission gets you to the credits, and therefore is considered by many as beating the game. Completing the game 100% is just that. All Missions is only what you'd run to avoid having an "Any% No Dupes" category, and is nothing more than a mission version of "All Oysters" or "All Stadium Events".

Now I am not against the category existing. As I've mentioned before in some other post(s), I'm all for it being a thing. But it does not deserve to be made a non-misc category in my opinion, unless there's enough competition to warrant it being made main.

Who would even think any% 7 assets is an actual any%. It already sounds as arbitrary as the category is.

People running SA all missions because they hate dupes, they want to do it seriously. And no they don't want to be an insane person running 100% because it expands the game way to much with stupid content.

People use speedrun.com to find runners, streams and runs. We can discuss this as long as we want based on the content of the category (FHC does have a point, but from that perspective then the only not misc category that should exist would be any%). But in my eyes your just shoving away something because of your own selfcentered spotlight (yes I ll say it, in my opinion the gta community has been full of egotists for a long time).

The community has been split for years, and the thing I see most is people responding based on what is best for themselves not worrying about other people.

Also what would it hurt to have it on the front page of sa really? I already proposed (but no longer care too now....) to help out and regulate it. So you didn't reject it cause of the extra work, we can cross that one out. So please explain....

I agree with everything MH said except for the last sentence. I don't think the competitiveness or liveliness of a category should determine if it is Misc or not. If by definition it is Misc or Main that it should stay that way without pressure of being moved back and forth.

Of course as an AM enthusiast, I was sad to see GTA3 AM get moved to Misc even though I think it has the clearest rules and most definitive goal BUT I understand the need for consistency. So if AM being a Misc category deters people from running it, then I have to question how invested they were to begin with.

Oh my, all that hype towards creating and running All Missions in SA went to nothing because some people wouldn't get their e-achievements acknowledged by other people who are too smart to find and press that "Show misc categories" button? Woah, man, never could've seen that coming! Better contact guinness book of records before it's too late, fam. Just think about all the fame and mad cash! ffzSmoothMove #MakeGtaSpeedrunningGreatAgain

When it comes to the speedrunning leaderboard of a particular game, the main categories should reflect the most common end goals players have when playing the game. In the case of GTA, it's beat the game (aka complete the main storyline) and achieve in-game 100%.

Miscellaneous: (of items or people gathered or considered together) of various types or from different sources.

All Missions is, by definition, miscellaneous, but that doesn't mean it should be hidden away in the manner that miscellaneous categories are currently "hidden away". I'm not here to tell the people in charge of this website how they should run and design their site, but it would definitely be better if both the main and misc. categories were equally displayed. Currently, we don't even have the option to display Misc. categories by default. This capability is however available for the rules of a category.

I think something like this would work and look fine, probably even better than it does now:

Misc.: | Category | Category | Category | Category | Category |

The option to not display the Misc. by default should be given, but the GTA leaderboards should keep things consistent and require that Misc. categories be displayed by default (under this hypothetical change, of course).

I'm not sure how you took my last comment, but i'm clearly saying having a s¤¤¤ time as WR gives people more reason to get competitive with it, but who's going to take a misc category seriously?

Obviously not anyone cos everyone has been calling it a meme since "I" yes, "I" first ran the category to give it some legitimacy and made a guide for it the day after and am continuing to update it. Instead I have to get annoyed with all these undefined rules and s¤¤¤. Did any of you have to run a used to be category faster than everyone else twice, have an undefined rule set and a mod verify a run as WR to a person with a slower time that could care less about the category as a whole.

I think anyone by now has already heard my rant and understands i'm salty af because I've already invested a lot of time into it and the way things turned out made it "not fun."

Of course there's the other reason which is the true reason "AM" even exists. Duping killed runs. Not everyone runs V1. I run Xbox which is similar to steam and is "more stable." I'm sure the counter argument to that would be "just run V.1." I shouldn't have to be forced into running a certain version to be compete with WR holder not that I am, but that is my point.

It was all fine before duping and now it's not. Honestly "NO DUPING" category is becoming more realistic with this argument lately then "AM," but that would obviously split the entire leaderboard considering there's very few "Duped" runs then not and I'm sure nobody wants that.

If a person suddenly lost interest in at least giving a try to w/e misc. category just because it is misc. or became so then he most likely wasn't really interested in doing so to begin with. Can anyone explain to me why thing like that suddenly matters?

If my hardware would give me a chance to try All Missions then i'd most likely do so because that category seems quite interesting and i wouldn't care about it being misc. because it simply exists and that would've been enough for me already to give it a go whenever i'd feel like it.

It's different when the run is longer than "Sub 5" which is still longer than most people care to run. "AM" currently isn't even "Sub 7" not that it can't be, but my point is that it's a long run.

Does that mean long runs like Trilogy should be in the misc section? "In an extreme case ofc." I don't see a difference. There's nothing misc about "AM" because nothing you do in the run is Miscellaneous.

eg. what Zoton calls it "All Story Missions"

"I shouldn't have to be forced into running a certain version to be compete with WR holder not that I am, but that is my point." Nobody is forcing you to run a specific version but yourself. An obvious thing a speedrunner has to ask himself when he starts going for WR is "Which version of the game is the fastest?". That's why you see OoT speedrunners, who used to play on iQue, suddenly move to a completely different system. If you don't want to be forced to play the fastest version, then why are you trying to get a WR?

I think at this point this is less about the legitimacy of the category or runs and more about "muh WRs". Just speedrun for fun and this issue does not exist. And if you think you'll have more fun going for WR, then you should switch to the fastest version.

So I should switch to a more unstable version of the game i'm not used to? How about you can't dupe in "Steam" or "Xbox" which is "More Stable." Is that a more legit reasoning? If I recall from running VC there's different verions w/different comments. eg. PAL, EU, JPN. So is the solution to make stupid things like that to make people like me feel better about being at a disadvantage?

Speedrunning is hardly about having fun tbh. I'm competitive and have been competing against Josh's time for two years before duping. I want the best possible time I can get that is realistic, but have the competitive aspect.

Having dupes change that makes it a different story when everything, yes back to the drawing board with this one. "Was fine" before duping.

As an example GTA 3 and VC has always been broken to the point console's and or version couldn't compete such as "JPN" and replay abuse. Which I managed to reduce the gap by "actually duping" in GTA 3 to get a good time for Xbox.

SA is a different story tho. This situation has only came up recently and people have been speedrunning on equal grounds for years now and now there is an unfair advantage.

If you can't understand the fact that this is killing an already dead community, then you shouldn't even have the voice to speak about it. The point isn't fun or money, it's being competitive and fair, you're telling me when Crook spends 14 hours on both of his AM runs combined, it was for fun and not being competitive, trying to bring this game back alive?

You don't even know what speedrunning is at this rate, i was pretty much about to get WR before duping, and now this eliminated my chances, simply because people don't have minds of their own, everyone agrees that duping is bad, but when someone speaks up about it, it just ends up being a cirlce jerk, and agreeing with whatever person seems right to them in THAT moment.

Then the next day they forget they even posted it. If you agree that AM should be a main category, but then post some bullshit reasoning for it to stay misced, you are the problem.

Why is speedrunning there in the first place? Competitiveness, that's why the leaderboards are there, and this right now is splitting up the community even more and killing it completely.

I also still don't see how All Missions is miscellaneous, it's All STORY missions, you're still beating the game, you're not JUST doing stunt jumps, or tags, or golf, those are miscellaneous. We've went over this like 10 times but noone hears it. By definition, you're talking shit if you think spending 8 hours on something is just a scrapped away, ''fun'' run. Again, read my previous post as well.

warcryptic: Are you saying that just because a few people think it should be a main category, that it should become one? And that not doing so is selfish? I'm not sure if that's what you mean, because that makes VERY little sense. You don't just come up with some category and BAM it becomes the next hot new thing. Yes, there is a group of people interested in the category. Yes, the category exists. It definitely is not a main category though, that's just a given. I have a feeling that its "misc" categorization means just about nothing and that people will still have some regard for it as a category, even if it's hidden. Cyber and Crook and Zoton and whoever else wants to run it can give it more meaning, and I'll be damned if people still don't give a shred of a fuck about it based solely off the fact that it requires one more mouse click to reach. Like, All Robberies in Vice City was truly a meme. It got to the point where new runners were resorting to "Robberies%" before doing Any% stuff. It was still a misc. category though.

Also, to go back to your Any% 7 Assets comment, it was made so that you could use updated strats except for asset duping, which is a major skip, while All Missions here was made to avoid dupes at all. Not like that's much different, I think you'd agree. (Actually, no, but here's hoping that you do.) However, if you're here to cause silly drama by calling out the entire community (save for some others who don't consider themselves a part of it) instead of doing what your first post suggests to try to do, then just leave, lol.

Crook: Who even called it a meme? I have not seen anyone refer to All Missions as a "meme". Just because it is under miscellaneous categories for now does NOT mean that it is just a meme. Also it was literally just created, you can't expect everything to be perfect right off the bat. There were "undefined rules" as you say and I do agree that they should've been there in the first place, but it's not like we can do anything about those runs at this point, 'cause they already happened. Things can be changed for the better for the future runs of All Missions, but I definitely think that working together on the matter is gonna be infinitely more productive.

Cyber: Your post looks like a lot of bickering and it might be better that I don't comment on it. Lemme just say that I'm posting what I really think, and that I'm doing my best to exclude any bias. Also, If I'm getting what you're referring to here, I'd rather this not become the SA version of the Classic% Ending C thread.

edit: to your second post I can say that S mentioned the arbitrariness of "story", though I did suggest that before as well in #gta.

Everyone: What we can turn this thread into is more reasonable conversation to agree on a result. This thread looks like it's going down the toilet because people can't be reasonable. That's coming from the person who is younger than you. I'm tempted to lock this thread, and then the actual point of this thread would have to end up elsewhere, maybe even in a Twitch chat.

** TL;DR -- All Missions is not a meme. Its misc status doesn't mean that, and if anything people won't care that it's misc either and will have some regard for it as a category regardless, because of the people choosing to run it. Also, let's discuss reasonably. **

What are you talking about? It already is a main thing, from 3, and VC, now S just decides it should be all miscellaneous and you agree with it to the point where it killed the category completely, as a concept. And all the time and effort people put into the runs is in the toilet.