I have big problems speed running this stage. If i try to spin in the beginning (over the falling blocks) the game randomly decides to sometimes ignore all inputs until the spin completes on it's own (and i fall down the platform).

This happens randomly to me. If I use one spin for both sets of falling blocks, it happens like 90% of the time. If start the spin after the first set of falling blocks, this happens 50% of the time.

Can someone explain to me why this happens? It's not dropped frames eating single inputs, but I can't control the character at all.

Also I am new to speedrunning and this is my first game. Are there any resources on how to play this game? I learned a lot from watching most of the videos on the leaderboard, but I haven't seen for example a proper explanation of the exit dash, how speed works in the game or any glitches. I think everyone would benefit from an exchange like this (I can inconsistently reproduce the SEZ Boss glitch... is this common knowledge or should I share?)

There aren't really any resources because the game is so simple. Speed is just Peelout/spindash and roll jump everywhere. Exit dash is just because the fade out begins when your character is further to the right of the screen, so getting there faster helps, so you just release so you have speed moving right as the level ends.

I've not seen any setup resembling consistency on the SE boss, so sharing that would be cool. As for your specific issue, sadly I don't remember specifically right now (it's been a while, and my memory is notoriously bad).

I will try to make a video of it on Monday/Tuesday. For now, this is what I got:

Sleeping Egg Zone Boss Glitch: If the boss has only 1 hp left (he takes 8 hits), you position yourself on the very right of the screen, the boss is jumping one "column" left to you and you jump and hit him in the right position/with the right movement, you can skip the "exploding animation", which would save a couple of seconds.

I got that glitch (and a savestate before and during the glitch) in BizHawk, where I tried to research what is happening. I can confirm, that if I change the enemy hp from 1 to 2 (via hexeditor), this glitch won't trigger (so it seems, a simple boss skip isn't possible). They way i got it triggered was by hitting him while he was landing and hitting him pretty much to the right of his shell. From my safestate (which includes a good setup) I get the glitch to trigger ~33% of the time (because my execution sucks... with perfect execution I am sure it is 100%). I can't say if it is feasible to do it in a speedrun, but for TAS it would definetely be an optimization.

Oh, and btw: everyting in this game seems to have a 3 frame delay or so. So what you see, isn't necessary what went through the engine (at least for me).

EDIT: I was researching it a bit more and as it seems, the positioning doesn't really matter. it seems to only matter to hit him exactly, while he is on the ground. But that is just what I observe... could be wrong...

1.) The Aqua Planet input drops suck. I actually take a slower strat through the level (act 1) due to the inconsistency. I speculate its because the entire level runs like ass, and my theory is because of the scrolling clouds are too much for the game to handle. So maybe look into a more consistent strat for yourself, so your not losing runs on BS like that.

2.) I was having a discussion about the SE boss glitch with FlyingFox. She believes it happens when you hit Robotnik on the exact frame he shoots his weapon. A good person to ask about this specifically would be brad86. https://www.twitch.tv/brad_86 Send him a whisper. He is a good buddy of mine and a really chill dude and loves to discuss chaos :) He has tried in the past to get that strat consistent.

3.) As far as the exit dash I made a video on it. Im going to copy and paste a message i sent to Fox about it here. If i recall correctly, you can save ~3 sec over the course of the run doing it.

[copied message start] "I may have gone way overboard with this, however i had fun doing it. I took samples on TH1 from you[fox], maman, brad, and myself playing Sonic Chaos. I wanted to see if there was in fact an optimal way to finish a level after sonic hits the goal sign. Keep in mind that its a small sample size with 30fps video, but i believe there is enough data here to say for certain. video link (its an unlisted youtube video, as i did not have anyones permission to use there video)

<chart<

I made a chart here after going frame by frame in the video. obviously twitch clips is far from frame perfect, so everyones sign lands at a slightly different time. I factored that in the chart. I also chose 4 points to take the time from to see exactly what was optimal. The big discrepancy is the first difference, between when the sign post lands and the frame the screen turns white after the stage is completed. This is when we have the option to spindash off of the screen from the middle or just stand there ect. The next two points are just score and title card, I expected those to be very close among us and they were. The most surprising thing is the fluctuation between title card and next level loaded. (I chose the frame the screen is no longer 100% black, as we have control of sonic then) For some reason mamans title card lasted the same amount of frames mine did, but his level loaded much later. The same amount of frames for our title cards makes me believe he was holding A to fast skip like i was, i would have no idea why he lost time there. anyways, the good stuff is last. maman and i had the right idea, but i believe he lost some time going more to the left to peelout, where i just stood on the sign. (i wonder where the optimal place to spindash is) Anyways i took the difference between my time and you and brad (mamans time loss confusus me, as he shoudlnt have a time loss) and figured you and brad could possibly save around 3 seconds ish over the course of the 9 levels in the run that use the sign post. its a free time save. i really thank sophira, because she was in my chat and we were talking about how it did seem faster but neither of us had any clue on how to check" [message end]

Sorry for the double post but i have remembered something else about the AP1 input loss. I remember having the same problem on EE2 (up top) and on SE2 (with Tails). I believe it may have something to do with the crumbling blocks. Ive asked a few runners to stop by here and help. i remembered them talking about it on stream, i just do not remember exactly what they said.

[edit] and good luck on the speedrunning! this is a great first game to pick up. Im fairly new to speedrunning myself and the classic sonic community has been great. everyone seems super helpful and kind. keep it up! chaos is a great stepping stone to the other 8bit games and possibly move onto the 16bit games :D

Thanks for the info pancakes!

In regards to the SE boss: I updated my post above... I believe you simply have to hit the boss, while he is on the ground. I checked and I get the glitch to trigger, while he is not shooting (and he wouldn't shoot any time near that).

In regards to the exit dash: Interesting video, which shows a lot (but i believe not all). I made some measurements myself in BizHawk (compared strategies and counted frames). My numbers are also somewhat impercise, but let me share them with you anyways (just focus on the difference between the number, not the numbers themselves - lower is better):

Good Peelout: 529 Bad Peelout: 546 Standing in the left: 600 Standing in the right: 547 Running in the right: 542 Jumping in the left: 648

These number lead me to believe there are three factors to the exit dash:

• is it successful at all? (in your video flying fox doesn't do an exit dash at all, while brad messes up)
• what is the exit speed? (why is running right, better than standing? - I am not sure on this, but I believe a peelout is better than a spin... i may be wrong)
• what is your horizontal position, when your speed is shown/you loose control? (in your video, I am sure, that you are further to the right than maman, so your exit dash is better (in case a spin would be the same as a peelout) - this is what i mean with "good/bad" in my numbers)

"(i wonder where the optimal place to spindash is)" -> My answer would be: There is no optimal place. If you are further to the left, you have a bigger time window to not messup your exit dash, but the penalty is bigger if you mess up. If you are far to the right, the timing is basically impossible. But if your timing is perfect, every place is equaly good.

Thanks again for the reply!

EDIT: My PB is currently 13:20... can't record at the moment though :( EDIT2: In regards to the black screen issue... what emulator are you using? I have the feeling that APZ1 runs smoother on BizHawk than Fusion. Maman told me he uses Fusion.

" If you are further to the left, you have a bigger time window to not messup your exit dash, but the penalty is bigger if you mess up. If you are far to the right, the timing is basically impossible."

that is exactly what i was thinking. good stuff icy.

I don't know why we can't control Sonic at this moment, the way i found to play it is to jump before the second serie of falling block, then to spindash. If you do that you will be able to control entirely Sonic.

@Maman: I tried to do it (I used the exact same strategy as you did in your wr video), however it still happens often, that I loose control. If it works for you consistently, I think it may be because, you have a consistent enough execution.

I did some more debugging on APZ1 and I didn't really solve the problem, but I have a better understanding now. This is actually why I came here in the first place so let me share my findings (slowly I get used to BizHawk and my RAM table for the game becomes more and more populated):

• if you hit any of the ducks on the wrong frame while doing a spin dash, one of Sonic's state variables (in RAM: @1503) changes from SPINNING_STATE(==2) to IN_AIR_STATE(==3), which prevents you from "double jumping"/makes you loose control
• the dangerous frame(s) is, when the duck is around the peak of its jump
• I can 100% reproduce whatever state (loosing control/keeping control), however I need a setup, which takes time and defeats its purpose
• the state change has nothing to do with the blocks or frame drops... I can reliably loose control with a single duck enemy
• I couldn't loose control when I was just rolling instead of doing a spin dash (pressing down on the pad, while having momentum), even though the state in the before mentioned variable (@1503) is always in SPINNING_STATE, no matter if I do a roll or spin dash

I hope it helps anyone of you. I also hope I get to record a video next week, to illustrate and backup my findings.

Yes it works consistently like 99% of the time i would say That's interesting, you're doing an amazing job !

soon enough youll hit a sub 13 time dude :) the par time is mike89's 13.01 we was actually talking about it and he pops up in our stream hes like "i like the way that im the standard" :)

as for aqua 1 its possible to peeliut off the top and jump on the downhill and hit an enemy and gain an speedboos landing on a solid non breaking platform. then continue the stage. avoiding all slow roll situations and water hazards. just takes an extra jump for a missing 4 or 5 rings needed for special stage

the other strat is to stop by the enemy and peelout thru them taking 0 dps

Here the promised video:

Nice ! Indeed i never miss it but it's kind of muscle memory i guess cause i've never timed it or something like that I still think it's the best way to do this part of the level, i've tried some things thanks to what you said but it didn't really worked, it's just slower. I'm really happy that someone who have a more "technical" point of view like you join our community, so thank you ! :)

(By the way sorry for my english)