Over the years we've discovered many differences in glitches, tricks and general gameplay between the NTSC and PAL versions of Rygar. Today the speedruns of the two different versions are vastly different. Because of these differences (and the recent PAL version competitiveness) I'm proposing we separate the current Any% board into two separate boards (Any% NTSC and Any% PAL).

I hope this isn't seen as an attempt to diminish WolfAeterni's accomplishment with Any% on the PAL version because that is not the intention but rather to make room for competition on PAL without invalidating the history of any% on NTSC.

Separating the boards could potentially increase activity on the Rygar boards which I see as a positive. It's possible that folks who already have an NTSC Any% time would be interested in the PAL Any% category as a separate run and vise versa.

I'm going to float this proposal for a few days and unless I see overwhelming opposition to this idea, I'll separate the boards. Thanks for listening and please share any feedback you might have.

I'm against it purely based on how SRC works now. You can now easily filter the boards AND history will reflect that filter. This streamlines where runners need to submit to for Any% and cuts down on the category bloat.

I agree on separating the two Any% categories since there are things in PAL that are simply not possible in NTSC (maybe vice versa?), just based upon the runs I've seen, and the runs are substantially different, so having another way to play Any% that would also "count" is very appealing to me.

I also like the point @sYn brings up. I've made suggestions like this before to unify Any% categories on a board into a single category, but it didn't fly. I'd also be fine with keeping one Any% to rule them all and then allow people to filter how they want if people prefer that approach.

I'm also fairly sure, if I have a run in both NTSC and PAL, that even with region obsoleting, the filter will still show both of my runs accordingly.

This would solve the issue with discouraging either NTSC or PAL runs. Of course users have to filter to see it, but it still keeps the data cleaner.

Just an example, right now, the PAL board looks like this:

I didn't know that you could filter the board a certain way and have it show the results as an ad hoc board. That's pretty rad.

I'm not sure that many people are aware of that feature or use it on a regular basis. For most folks, I think the default view results in your 'place on the leaderboard'.

1st off, don't worry about me, I totally understand the argument to separate the boards. My main argument against would be that while the route is different, the end time is pretty much the same. Like sure the PAL TAS is about 40 seconds faster, but there's no way on Earth we'll ever reach that level of gameplay. Also yeah you can just filter the boards, I feel like a lot of people know about that feature or would be able to find it if they cared enough. Having a whole separate board for 2 runs is just a bit weird. In Super Mario Bros, we separated the NTSC and PAL versions when PAL started to get interests (and also because SMB1 is heavily optimized so it makes more sense), I feel like there's no point right now to separate the boards until more people get into it. I'm planning on releasing a full PAL tutorial in the very near future, we'll see if it sparks more interests. Anyhow I won't be mad or anything if the final decision is to split the boards, if anything that'll give me a reason to grind NTSC lol

I have been waiting to comment on this topic until I was sure about my stance on it. I was being cautious as I benefit directly by seperating the boards and didn't want that to be construed as the sole purpose for my argument. It is my opinion that the versions are too different to be compared fairly. It is not the route that concerns me but the mechanics. The code simply handles the same situations differently. Some of these differences are beneficial (jumping the river in Garloz, clipping through certain barriers) and others are detrimental (1200 tone cap!) But whether or not there are advantages or disadvantages is irrelevant. The game is simply different and not fairly comparable. Also I was not personally aware of the way filtering works on SRC as I have never had a reason to use it until it was brought up in this conversation. However once using it I noticed the Arcade version is also included and that is a completely different game.

Appreciate your thoughts and transparency, joecurr. I'm also still weighing how I feel about this.

On one hand, I was really excited to see that a PAL version of an NES game could finally be competitive with the (typically much faster) NTSC version! Especially with the end-time of the two versions being pretty close together.

But I also see how the uniqueness of each version can (and maybe should) warrant two different boards. If they do get separated, I hope to see the PAL board begin to get even more attention. It's really fun and quirky.

While I'm still working out whether I'd be for/against separate boards, I can say that I hope the decision brings in more people enjoying Rygar. :)

Well I was getting ready to separate the NTSC boards for the reasons I outlined in the original post. The main reason I'm in favor of separating is for the fact that the two games (NTSC and PAL) are so different and, secondly, because I think its best for the long-term popularity and accessibility of the speedrun.

The gotcha was that I dont have the permissions to make those changes to the board (I'm just a verifier). @ShiningDragoon Do you have any thoughts on these proposed changes? Would you be able to separate the Any% boards? Thanks!

After reading everyone's comments, here are my thoughts...

The differences between the PAL and NTSC versions of Rygar are significant, particularly in the context of speedrunning. The mechanics required to execute exploits vary greatly between the two versions. Additionally, the disparity in frame rates (50Hz for PAL and 60Hz for NTSC) further complicates strategies and timings, essentially making it akin to learning two distinct games.

To ensure fairness and acknowledge the distinct challenges each version presents, it seems reasonable to separate categories not only for the top runners but for all participants. This acknowledges the effort and skill required to master each version, regardless of a runner's ranking or placement. It's important to recognize that each accomplishment, regardless of rank, is commendable.

Moreover, an often-overlooked aspect is the introduction of a keyboard-only category. This introduces a completely new dimension to the competition, warranting its own category. While minimizing clutter on leaderboards is understandable, this additional level of difficulty warrants consideration for its own distinct category.

Thank you for considering these points.

Sorry I didn't notice this thread start up. Next time you can just dm me if I don't respond lol. Seems like the consensus is to split the board. And while the run isn't at Blaster Master levels of different in terms of time. It does def differences in fundamental ways on how you play the game itself and the tricks involved. If @CritRocket wants to split I'll update his mod. Sadly I don't really have as much time as i used to. But I can if he can't.

@MikeyLovesRetro while I agree with your arguments towards splitting PAL and NTSC, making a keyboard-only board is useless. For NES games in general, playing on a keyboard vs. an NES controller or really any other types of controller doesn't make a difference. The best example is my 4:54 Sum of Best on SMB1 using a Guitar Hero guitar, something I have also achieved on controller and keyboard. The only reason I play with a keyboard is because NES controllers have given me hard hands pain over the years because my hands are just too big for these controllers. It would be kinda unfair to be put on a different board 'cause I physically can't play with a normal controller

The categories have been separated. Thanks everyone for you input and for keeping it civil!

actually instead of making it a different category, you can split the Any% board in 2 and have an NTSC and PAL tab. If you look at the SMB1 board that's what they did and it's more convenient/aesthetically pleasing. It can also be applied to other categories if needed and it makes it so the categories aren't too cluttered. On a side note, idk how you guys feel about the deathless category, but the run is just PAL Any% with nothing different. Maybe it would make more sense for the category to be NTSC only (and also move JoshKeys' run to the Any% PAL board)? Just a thought