Hello everyone! I want to ask the community and moderators to consider allowing the usage of emulators in speedruns. I know this is a controversial topic so I'll try my best to be considerate of those who disagree.

I'll start with why I'm invested. I found myself a couple of weeks ago getting back into MKWii which I had saved on my laptop for ages. I redownloaded dolphin and I fell back in love with the game. After a bit of grinding, I was desperate to see if there was a 100% category for the game. There is, obviously. But issue was that the rules for MKWii stated specifically that emulators were not allowed. That sucked because my Wii remotes had quit working years ago and I hadn't touched my Wii since.

So why were emulators banned in the first place? Simple; the community based time off of real-time and not ingame time so any form of fast loading was valuable. Emulators would be extremely unfair to someone using the real console because the console was dated. This is also why ISO loaders were banned. Now though, time is based on the ingame timer, which was intelligent because the WiiU had an advantage in loading time over the Wii. But, emulators and ISO loaders were kept banned. In every post I had seen until then, that was the reason emulators were banned.

Moderators have now mentioned that another reason to keep them banned is the usage of TAS features on Dolphin. I think that it can be difficult to tell a TAS from other speedruns but almost always there are ways to tell. One good sign a speedrun is not a TAS is if the recording comes from a livestream, because guaranteed start boosts and wheelie chains are really the only two possible TAS things you could do live (This information was gained from a TASer I asked, I personally am not informed on the specifics of tools). Alongside, checking emulator speedruns specifically for TAS would not be an extreme job if emulators were allowed because likely the core community that has existed would still be a majority of actual console players, since it has been a console-only leaderboard for years.

I believe that introducing emulator runs would allow many people to begin speedrunning the game. A large bit of the Mario Kart Wii community spends time using modded games and playing on emulator casually. These people could be potential speedrunners, or may be interested in trying it but cannot because of the current rules. The cost of rebuying a Wii or the game for those who do not have one is starting to increase since the console and game were released over 15 years ago. I look on eBay and the average price of a Wii is around 100 dollars or more. The cheaper ones, which are around $70, are often from sketchy sources or websites. The game now ranges from $30-80. It is no longer viable for every person to rebuy the game or console they already once owned, especially if they can still play it through an emulator. This makes speedrunning seem gatekeeper.

Although dolphin does have TAS tools, there are multiple GameCube and Wii games that allow emulation in their speedrunning. Wii Sports, Mario Sunshine, and Super Smash Bros. Melee are just a few. The Games that do have emulators banned oftentimes do not have ingame timers and usually want to prevent faster loading times, such as Donkey Kong Country Returns or the Mario Galaxy games. This would not be a concern anymore because of the usage of ingame time for most run categories. I believe that it is very much a debatable topic for the Wii in general.

If the moderation team or community still feels it is unfair that emulators like Dolphin are being compared to actual console runs, they could add a new run category or on default, hide runs marked as using emulator in each category. The latter would not add more categories or clog any room for what some players and members of the community might consider "real runs".

Please consider my request, thanks.

"I look on eBay and the average price of a Wii is around 100 dollars or more. The cheaper ones, which are around $70, are often from sketchy sources or websites" I have absolutely no idea how you came to the conclusion that the average price of a wii on ebay is 100 dollars. There are multiple listings on Ebay for a wii + all the cables for under 50 dollars after shipping, and it gets down to under 30 if you already have the cables. It's completely unrelated to the overall point of what you're saying, which I feel like there could be some sort of solution found if desired (such as requiring a handcam), but you might reconsider just buying a wii. As for mario kart wii being 30-80, it's also pretty easy to find it disc only for 20 on ebay.

lets hope this happens because i dont have a capture card and i lost my mkw disk

I don't really see Emulator giving any advantage other than better fps.

As one of the mods said, "Emulator may be allowed after the switch to IGT, but that is to be discussed after the switch." Seeing as it's been 2 years now since the switch, let's discuss! I'll ignore the nitpicking over ebay prices as that's not really relevant.

Cheating: we all know cheating is possible on console and emulator. So what is the argument then, that cheating is easier on emulator? To quote a mod again, "On the topic of Gecko codes, cheating is no easier on Dolphin than console. Cheats like a speed modifier can easily be done on console with homebrew, as well as on Dolphin without changing the code." But it's not just gecko codes people are concerned about, it's Dolphin's TAS features too. However, this argument does not make sense either as TASes can be played back on console. For example, they did this at SGDQ. Until someone can give me a cheating method that is both exclusive to emulator and impossible to mitigate with additional proof standards, I don't think there is a logical reason for banning emulator on these grounds.

And then people will say "SOME people won't be able to meet the new proof standards or don't have a fast enough computer, so let's ban EVERYONE from participating that way". I think it's pretty obvious why this is a flawed argument. Some people don't have Wiis either, does that mean we should ban Wiis? Having more options available to runners is a good thing in general, the fact that we wouldn't be helping everyone on emulator is not a valid reason to help nobody instead.

Currently, no one is producing Wiis but people are producing computers. This means that at some point we will be forced to choose between letting the community die and allowing emulators. So while they might be banned for the foreseeable future, we will have to unban them eventually. When they are, people like me that have been running the game for years but unable to submit runs will finally have a chance to compete! :)

"It's not hard to buy a Wii, and it's not difficult to homebrew it." I have a homebrewed Wii. I'm just not willing to put up with how much worse it is to run on. I, like many other players, would prefer to run on emulator. Wiis could be free and it would change nothing about my arguments in favor of allowing emulators.

"You realize running on anything BUT Vanilla or CTGP is banned, right? It's easy to tell. Basically RiiOcarina and Riivolution etc. are banned. So you can't use codes." How is this any different from saying "You know cheating on dolphin is banned right? So you can't"? How can you tell just from gameplay footage that someone is running Riivolution? If banning codes is sufficient and it's "easy to tell", why would the same idea not apply to dolphin?

"I'd say it's way easier, specifically for full-cup runs." If you disagree with this quote, then take it up with charlocharlie I guess.

"Wii is the original console. Dolphin is an emulation." It seems like you misunderstood my point here. I was pointing out the error in the logic of saying that some people don't have the right equipment, so we should ban the use of that equipment entirely. That doesn't make any sense because not everyone has a Wii either.

"Again, you cannot replay a full-cup run on console." Sure, it's easier to play a TAS on console using an RKG. You don't even need a replay device for that if you can just port over the ghost file. Is there really no way to play back arbitrary inputs? Let's assume there isn't and that you've met the first criteria, that it's a cheating method exclusive to emulator. Is it impossible to mitigate with additional proof standards such as a handcam? I think it would be fairly obvious if someone were replaying an hour long TAS that their button presses on camera did not perfectly line up.

"If we were having this discussion on the Super Mario Odyssey boards, you would have a much different response." I'm not sure why you would bring up a different game on a different console with a different emulator, but by all means, tell me what my response would be.

Just from raw game footage, I have no way of telling whether an emulator run is TASed or not.

Some ideas I had that could ensure an emulator run wasn't TASed:

• An input recording file showing 0 rerecords doesn't help, as it can easily be edited and the file isn't signed.
• Showing the Dolphin input display alone doesn't help at all either
• The status bar in windowed mode shows whether Dolphin is running a TAS playback, but it can be faked with simple video editing
• A controller cam, with some sort of splicing prevention (e.g. a running timer in frame, or some sort of constant motion between tracks) could work

The only realistic idea I have high confidence in is likely a combination of those (input display + hand cam + window capture + livestream session), which isn't too outrageous if you compare to other games (https://www.speedrun.com/smb1/run/z0owxg4z).

P.S. If anyone can find a console verification video of a dynamic-RNG Wii game like MKWii's VS mode, let me know. I've yet to see one myself.

Note however that just because this leaderboard doesn't allow for emulators doesn't mean you can't run the game on emulator at all. It's common practice to ban emulators for reasons discussed above here. You can still actively participate, just not have the run on a leaderboard.

i vouch for this! only advantage an emulator has is speed modification which is easy to detect, fps but most games should be ran with vsync to prevent weird glitches, and save loading (save anytime and load that save at anytime) which on most emulators shows a pop up when u save and load

in my opinion i think that emulated runs should be allowed but submitted runs must be live streamed and emulator settings must be shown before game launch, but thats just what i think :)

@P_Cuda I understand why emulators have to be banned for Mario Kart games from Wii onwards and I'm cool with not speedrunning the game too, but the reasons for why Dolphin is banned are - in my honest opinion - absolutely petty. Faster loading times is used as an argument? Sly 2 runs use the Korean version of the game which has faster loading times & no one there has a problem with that (not only that, faster loading times are one of the only three real advantages Dolphin actually has, as @sprmcell brought up).

TAS Tools built-in to Dolphin are used as an argument? They can just be toggled on or off! In Dolphin! I get that the community is so sensitive over that (because someone was caught cheating with them), but they don't have to ban the emulator outright! Just ban use of the TAS Tools instead (and ban the save/loading too) - it's a whole lot easier than just not allowing people with Dolphin to speedrun entirely!

Too many categories? Just use a checkbox that asks if you're using an emulator or not when submitting runs. Console & game prices are cheap? Yeah, right - USED OR PRE-OWNED. I highly doubt you're going to find a mint-condition copy of Mario Kart Wii at a cheap price, let alone a Wii console in the same state.

My point is that we have to adjust to the times. Not everyone has access to a Nintendo Wii or an actual Mario Kart Wii disc, so people like me have to resort to drastic measures in order to play the games we love (and even speedrun them too - in fact, HALF of all 10 of my featured full game runs thus far have all been done on emulators). So yeah, give Dolphin a chance again, but ban the use of TAS Tools and save states to prevent cheating. It'll be much easier than just outright banning the emulator itself.

@Black-Shadow

1. Faster loading times don't really matter anymore and also it wasn't a petty argument at all when RTA was the main timing method. Beside, you need a pretty beefy computer to run Dolphin + record it at 60fps, that is an unfair playing ground.

2. Anyone can just replay an input file since even if you turn off TAS tools, it doesn't show you when a input file is been played back. Also Charlie's point a couple of comments before stands.

3. The Wii and the disc don't need to be in mint condition, if it runs the game at normal speeds, I do not care what condition is the disc or the Wii in.

4. No, just no. Don't bring your other speedruns of other games as argument, each game has it's own rules you gotta follow. Many games still outright ban emulators because of inconsistencies, so it's not a matter of "adjusting to the times".

Inconsistency arguments are BS anyway...you know how most communities fix that? Have emulator compete only against emulator...so number 4 is actually a good point, especially since Nico here did the exact same thing he hates from the comment above, using inaccessible and elitist communities as a crutch for a console-only argument...its sheer hypocrisy to say you hate that kind of argument and then use the exact same one to support your own outdated opinion.

I think if Dolphin is allowed, we should at least make runners show the window title, which shows if a .dtm file is being played back or not.

If we get people submitting to the leaderboards who modify the source code to make the window title static, measures should be implemented for this. (You'd be surprised at how many people would think of trying such a thing.)

i wonder how hard can be to pass an emulator run as a console run with a good enough PC, and if someone has alredy done it lol

@NicoPlaysThings "Faster loading times don't really matter anymore and also it wasn't a petty argument at all when RTA was the main timing method. Beside, you need a pretty beefy computer to run Dolphin + record it at 60fps, that is an unfair playing ground." Sure, not everyone has a beefy computer nowadays, but like @qflame mentioned in his comment, it's still nice to have more options for those who don't have a Wii and a disc.

"Anyone can just replay an input file since even if you turn off TAS tools, it doesn't show you when a input file is been played back. Also Charlie's point a couple of comments before stands." Yes, I read Charlie's comment. However, he also said it CAN be faked. Emphasis on "can." Plus, it's not just emulators that can run TAS tools - pure-bred Wii consoles can do it too, as qflame had pointed out in his comment. Quoting him...

"we all know cheating is possible on console and emulator. So what is the argument then, that cheating is easier on emulator? To quote a mod again, "On the topic of Gecko codes, cheating is no easier on Dolphin than console. Cheats like a speed modifier can easily be done on console with homebrew, as well as on Dolphin without changing the code." But it's not just gecko codes people are concerned about, it's Dolphin's TAS features too. However, this argument does not make sense either as TASes can be played back on console. For example, they did this at SGDQ. Until someone can give me a cheating method that is both exclusive to emulator and impossible to mitigate with additional proof standards, I don't think there is a logical reason for banning emulator on these grounds."

"The Wii and the disc don't need to be in mint condition, if it runs the game at normal speeds, I do not care what condition is the disc or the Wii in." This is the only argument of yours in which you are right on.

"No, just no. Don't bring your other speedruns of other games as argument, each game has it's own rules you gotta follow. Many games still outright ban emulators because of inconsistencies, so it's not a matter of "adjusting to the times"." You hate me for bringing up Sly 2 here, yet you bring up the fact that other games still ban emulators? I smell hypocrisy.

Hi,

I'm new to speedrun but play MKWii since my childhood.

Recently made a Double Dash LAN with friends and discovered MKWii was also playable on dolphin, so i started playing it with nostalgic vibes.

I made a Double Dash run on dolphin, but can't understand what's the difference between DDash and MKWii that makes Dolphin banned only for Wii.

My Wii is now 16 years old, sometimes turns off, i've no capture card, my MKWii disc is damaged, so there's no way i could make a 1h run on it safely.

Also playing on a real Wii means adding a TV to the set, this is becoming really expensive, yes it can sound weird to say that but it's not available when you're not living alone.

For what I see, dolphin TAS tool can be disabled?

99% of the people wanting dolphin allowed are jsut wanting to play a game they like, personnaly my 32 tracks times are around 1h06's.. it's definitely not cheating :D

Why not allowing dolphin for 1h00+ IGT runs (for example) which would mean WR's couldn't be set by a cheater anyway but people who just want to play and improve themselves in game they like could just play?