All categories have been updated and reset to reflect the new rule requirements.

Given the impossibility to verify if a run was seeded or unseeded, I've decided to just scrap the unseeded category in its entirety. Thus, going forward, all runs must show the seed used. At the end of the run, runners will be required to open the developer's console and type "c_announce(TheWorld.meta.seed)" no quotes to show the world seed that they ran on. If caves are used you will also need to announce the seed in the caves.

With seeds being shown, it is heavily encouraged for each of us to challenge other player's worlds to get an even better time! Also, if you don't want to run, feel encouraged to share interesting seeds that you find. Seed hunting will arguably be more important than simply running existing seeds as an ideal seed presents a significant amount of potential time saved.

Also, due to Klei's aggressive and frequent patching over the course of the last year, the patch number that you are running on must also be included. This can be achieved by showing the home screen of the game before clicking the "host game" button. Patches may remove bugs or exploits that are used thus rendering some old techniques impossible on the current patch. Until someone shares a way to safely downpatch your game, runs will be removed if a used bug is removed in a later patch.

Also also, due to time constraints (as 13 boss runs were already 10 hours long and now we have 2 additional bosses) and Klei continually adding new bosses, I've removed the all boss category for the time being. If there is significant interest in this category then we can reopen it later. Until then, each boss has their own individual level leaderboard.

I'm as sad as anyone to see the unseeded category go, some who frequent this board may know that I did unseeded speed runs on stream and YouTube. This feels like a lot of my content was just undone, but ultimately, it's for the best. It's been nearly 2 years since I posed the question on the single player board, asking people for a way to verify that a run is unseeded, to which even the developers of the game stated that there is no way outside of the honor system - which, sadly, does not cut it if we want this board to encourage healthy competition.

With all that out of the way, that means each category is now up for grabs. Let's get out there and find some crazy fast seeds and put our skills to the test to save some frames and go quicker!

To me, removing runs whenever an update with fixes comes out seems like a pretty bad idea, for any speedrun leaderboard. You could separate old patch and recent patch with a subcategory (variable), and move runs over manually, but that's not a great solution either considering all the categories are Individual levels, and you'd have to click on the IL, then on the subcategory to find the runs. (Board would be harder to navigate, but at least it wouldn't be emptied when updates come out).

That would essentially require every patch to have it's own board though; creating a massively bloated and hard to navigate board. Plus, given the history of few runs being submitted, many boards would just be empty for each patch.

If we tried to avoid a new board for each patch, we'd have to verify that every seed continues to work each patch for all submitted runs (as Klei is currently making worldgen changes this could lead to old seeds not functioning anymore on any patch) as well as note all techniques/bugs/exploits used in each run and ensure all of those still work post patch. Even with as few runs as this game typically gets, that's a lot of work on the mods every single patch which currently is happening monthly.

Ultimately, the frequent patching puts us between a rock and a hard place. We make the board un-navigable to archive old runs, we dump old runs to encourage new runs on current patch, or we find a way to downpatch and have runners use specific patches to have a fair playing field. This is far from an ideal solution, but it's all I know to do to get it to be a runnable game again (hopefully).

That said, the current wipe that happened was due to shifting the board from unseeded to seeded. Since seeds are now required to be shown, old runs had to be removed as they didn't do this (since it wasn't a requirement back then). I don't think wipes will have to happen that often, but that's ultimately up to Klei until DST becomes a more stable game.

No, you don't need new subcategories for each patch, I was thinking just have 'Recent patch' (show up as default) and 'Old patch', and whenever a patch comes out just move all the runs from the first to the other, so old patch would represent everything that isn't replicable today. As for when to do that - I would assume just on every major update, and maybe on patches that specifically state to have changed world gen, but not minor quality of life things.

!! And to add to that, moving all runs from one subcategory from another can be done Instantly - 10 runs or a 1000, it would take the same amount of clicks. I can dm you the step by step for that.

I think preserving old runs is the best policy for a leaderboard, what I'm proposing won't add much clutter in general, and would help people get some clue on how others speedran a given category, rather than finding a wiped board. Even if you introduce a new rule for verifying runs such as showing the seed afterwards - I strongly disagree with wiping previous runs. Of course, today's wipe is done and it's understandable.

'Recent patch' (show up as default) and 'Old patch'

But this leads to the exact problem I'm worried about, having two runs competing in the same category where the older run has a distinct advantage. Why would someone feel motivated to grind a PB/WR on current patch with currently available techniques when in a month or two they get put on the same board as someone using a free win glitch from 3 patches ago?

Do other boards on this site have people competing in the same category where older runs have a distinct advantage and there is no way to downpatch? Because the previous patch board still matters and with the game constantly updating, runs today should expect to be put on the PP board later, thus being forced to view them as their competition too.

it would take the same amount of clicks

I'm sure you could just move runs quickly, the issue would be checking if each run's individual seed still works. Even if you argue that old seeds don't need to work anymore for a seeded category to matter, what about the situation where someone records a run then intentionally or unintentionally submits that run after a patch that breaks the seed? Through meta gaming, this could be used to snipe the top spot in previous patch runs by finding a perfect seed and not sharing it until it's no longer working or leads to a run being rejected because the seed can't be verified anymore. I'd argue both of these situations demotivate runners. One "punishes" people for submitting a run early enough to have others use their seed and beat their time, and the other punishes people for unluckily submitting right around the time Klei releases a patch leading to their run being rejected.

Not every change would be obvious either, if Klei adds even 1 new boon to the game, the tables change which could lead to a seed changing but it may not be immediately apparent from looking at the patch notes. We'd have to manually check each run in game to verify that boons/worldgen/etc remained seeded.

preserving old runs is the best policy

Most runs have never been on SRC though. Many well known runners never used this board to begin with. We'd only be preserving the handful of runs that are even submitted, but those are still available on YouTube and Twitch.

While I would love for all runners to start using this site and to be able to use one board as a more accurate snapshot of all runs and how seeing a lot of runs here, we have to be careful that through doing so we don't discourage potential runners going forward.

Luckily, this won't be an issue until 2021 at the earliest and hopefully we get more feedback and suggestions from people and especially other runners. It's not something we need to fix today, and honestly given the rate at which runs are summited (a little more than 1 per month on average) it likely won't be an issue without some huge unforeseen blow up in popularity.

Why would someone feel motivated to grind a PB/WR on current patch with currently available techniques when in a month or two they get put on the same board as someone using a free win glitch from 3 patches ago?

I think a better question would be: Why would someone feel motivated to grind a WR if their run will only be able to exist on the leaderboard for a few months. It's literally 'have your run on the current patch subcategory for as long as it belongs there, then have it moved over to an archive to preserve its legacy' vs. 'have your run on the leaderboard for as long as it's 100% replicable, then erased completely'.

Do other boards on this site have people competing in the same category where older runs have a distinct advantage and there is no way to downpatch?

The common sense I've seen throughout many boards is - yes, until the difference is significant enough to make a change.

Now an example from a game I moderate (almost fully copying Java Minecraft's policy):

There's a major patch subcategory, separating a massive chunk of runs Before x and After x update (Only if necessary!), and a variable visible on all runs named Exact patch, which just lets you know which specific version it was ran on, but not separating them. Recently, the game got 2 updates with noticeable balance changes that also happened to wipe all the previously useful seeds. What do we do? Find good seeds again, acknowledge the few changes that actually affect speedruns and deal with the 5% time advantage or disadvantage they'll cause in some of your runs.

If some godmode glitch exists for just a day before getting fixed, and there's like 1 run using it, an exception can be made to remove that run. But other than that, people make all kinds of sacrifices to find the middle ground between fair/navigable/representative of the game, but removing runs altogether should never be the main policy.

I’ve just seen an ancient guardian run on youtube, and it was so interesting that I thought about trying it myself. Then I came here to find an almost completely empty leaderboard. I was looking for a discord server when I found this thread. Now I understand why the leaderboard is empty. And I’m no longer considering running the game. The reasons:

1. No seedless runs. That takes away all the “adapt to the RNG” out of the equation, and turns the runs into “get lucky finding a better seed”. That’s not skillful. Sure you still need some skill, but that’s secondary. It’s even a problem because it forces to verify the seed and it might be impossible to do if there’s a new patch as MisutoM says.

2. Deleted runs . I’m on the same page as Max_overpower. That makes for a huge lack of incentive to run at all. I’d rather share leaderboard with an old run with a filter to take it away than play at all if my efforts would completely disappear in a couple months. The runs are still in youtube? Ok, but where? The point on keeping an archive here is making them easy to find.

3. Most runners just upload to youtube and don’t submit here. I can see why with these rules. There are just too many things to do. Scrolling through presets after each reset is not trivial, nor fun to do/watch.

I understand that all of those rules (seed sharing and preset showing) are there for a reason, but it’s still a bummer that takes the fun away. I’m sorry for the speedrunner scene of this game, because it had potential.

@Alebrant

I'm sorry you feel that way because I feel the same.

Unseeded runs can only be done for fun now because there is literally no way to ensure the integrity of a run and that it actually is random. Because it is possible to cheat (as you can see with the highly suspected cheater on the single player version of Don't Starve) the only way to ensure a fair and level playing field is for all runners to be seeded.

Here is a video I made as an example:

It follows all the previous rules for SRC, but actually is seeded. The run is indistinguishable from an unseeded run. Thus, by the old rules, I would have a ridiculously unfair advantage of having a secretly seeded world.

We literally had topics up for 18 months asking people for help on how to ensure that a run is randomly generated. Hell, we even reached out to the developers of the game asking them for help. They replied that there is literally no way to ensure that a run is unseeded and that the files have not been tampered with in some way. Topic here: https://www.speedrun.com/dont_starve/thread/spnpi

This is why the board had to be reset; we couldn't tell the difference between a fair or unfair run. That was explained well and was not an easy decision to make; You know I literally was deleting my own first place runs right? I dedicated my life to this game, I stream it as my full time job. I spent months training to do an unseeded all bosses speed run. Literally months of training for a 10 hour endurance run. And I had to delete that first place run. Months of my life gone. It was not an easy choice to make. (run here: )

So while I do empathize with your sentiment, I was the most active unseeded runner of this game period after all... Your critique literally misses the point and is not helpful. If you have a suggestion of how we can actually ensure that a run is random then please add that rather than ignoring all the previously posted topics on this which lead to why we were forced to change the boards to the current rules that we have in response to nearly 2 years of not finding a solution to the problem you are pointing out. Frankly, I'm offended by your inability to read and am glad that you won't be part of this speedrunning community.

There’s no need to be so rude. I’m just giving my opinion, as a potential runner, on the actual state of the scene. Knowing how you got there gives some context but nothing else, it doesn’t changes the actual rules for which the opinion is.

If you want a possible solution, the only thing I can think of is asking the developers for a dedicated button to start a new world from scratch with all settings to default and non configurable editing in-game files. But even then, it wouldn’t ensure the runs are fair because you can always edit the video cutting in the loading screen.

You can never be 100% certain that no cheats are being done. My personal opinion is that is better to trust in players good will. If someone’s runs are consistently suspicious or is caught cheating ban him forever. If the safety measures hurt fair players as much as cheaters, they should be weaker. But that’s just that, a personal opinion, as good as any other.

@Alebrant

There’s no need to be so rude

I stand by my statements. If it is rude to be blunt and honest then that's what I am. I won't mince words or waste time. If you were offended then that is unfortunate.

If you want a possible solution

Again, I refer you to read the other posts already on this board if you would actually like to help. We have already reached out to the devs (now explained to you twice) and Klei officially stated that what you are suggesting is literally impossible due to the open nature of Don't Starve Together's code.

You can never be 100% certain that no cheats are being done

This is true, but video editing can be caught, as has been brought to light in many scandals from other boards on this very site especially in the past two years. Video editing is also not trivially easy. In theory, it could be done perfectly and be undetected, but that is extremely difficult.

To cheat this game (unseeded) it is literally as simple as copying and pasting a number. If you know how to open a file, you are already a master of cheating this game.

If someone’s runs are consistently suspicious

This is impossibly subjective. As a mod, you only see the best runs from a player; the runs where things went right, where they took the right turns, jumped in the right wormholes, etc. I would rather have 20 would be runners (such as yourself) pass on running DST than I would ban one legitimate runner just because they got suspiciously lucky one weekend of recording.

But that’s just that, a personal opinion, as good as any other.

This philosophy is just wrong. An uninformed opinion is not as good as an expert or informed one. If you feel that your opinion is as valid after spending a maximum of 12 hours on this board and watching a single YouTube video as someone who has spent years pouring over the code of Don't Starve and DST, reaching out to and working with the developers, and has spent years on this mostly empty board before I wiped essentially 10 total runs, 4 of which were mine (1st places too) anyways, then you are just deluding yourself.

This board was empty before the wipe, you'd have known that had you spent years here or simply asking rather than assuming that it was a bustling and busy board before it.

For the record, if you actually care about the history and aren't just pretending to care:

Before the wipe: Ancient Guardian, Bearger, Deerclops, MooseGoose, SpiderQueen, Tree Guard, and Toadstool were literally empty boards despite being up and unchanged for over 4 years. Not a single run in 4 years submitted to any one of those categories..

Hell, the previous mod had not even made categories for Ancient Fuelweaver, Shadow Chess pieces, Antlion, Malbatross, or Crab King. Not to mention they simply left my all boss speed run in the verification queue for over a year despite them being active on the site on other boards and submitting runs themselves.

We have had more runs submitted and verified since I changed the rules than existed and were submitted in the 4 years prior to the wipe. Fewer than 15 runs were wiped (again, many of those being mine), we presently have a board that is actually up to date with 11 verified runs and 4 more in the queue as of today that hopefully our Mac mod can verify and confirm the seeds on.

So I'm sorry if your erroneous assumptions bothered me and belittled the boat load of work I have put into saving this board over the years. It has never been a popular game to run and submit to SRC, but it is currently in a healthier state than it has been in the past 4 years. If you don't like the rules (which again, have literally and defensibly saved this empty board and brought in a few current and active runners), then you don't need to run it, but don't pretend that you represent some untapped resource of 10s or 100s of potential runners who will suddenly join an extremely niche indie game if just a few rules that you don't like are changed.

To end with some positivity, there is nothing that is stopping you from doing unseeded runs for fun. If the only motivation to run a game is to have your name on an unknown internet board, then it wasn't likely meant to be. Personally, I am continuing to do unseeded runs on my stream and posting them to YouTube just for the love of the game. A category does not need to exist to justify having fun and doing unseeded runs.

No one asked, but I don't like seeded runs either. Because I am the mod here I did a few to get a name on some boards in the early days after the rules changes out of a sense of mod-ly duty, but it's nothing that I'm actually interested in doing.

Both seeded and unseeded runs are heavily luck influenced. Unseeded runs involve an arms race towards finding better seeds (the luck part), then the best runners can fight on a given seed to see who has better mechanical skill and map memory to save a few frames (the skill part).

Where as unseeded is a weird mix of luck and skill. You need to get lucky enough to get a map where things just work out and are close together, but also need enough skill to make fewer resources work out and not squander a once in a lifetime random gen. I like that feeling of getting a good gen and sudden pressure you feel when you realize "oh crap, it's on. I can't mess this one up." That pressure doesn't exist in seeded runs sadly, so I'll leave those up to the active and future runners who do enjoy that while I race myself for the love of the game rather than out of any desire to gain recognition.

If it is rude to be blunt and honest then that's what I am. No. Saying that someone is unable to read after he took his time to read and give an opinion is “rude” to say it lightly.

An uninformed opinion is not as good as an expert or informed one. And I guess you think yours is the expert one? Because you know that my experience in similar situations is null, don’t you?

Don't pretend that you represent some untapped resource of 10s or 100s of potential runners. I was A potential runner. And as I there could be more that don’t waste their time giving feedback. But nevermind... your opinion is the only one which matters because you’re the one who was there 2 years ago, and the newcomers aren’t here yet...

Man.. you are arrogant and disrespectful. I’m done with you. Because you can’t have a reasonable argue with an stupid guy. And besides speaking like an stupid guy, you act like a 12yo child that has classroom delegate rights. If it is rude to be blunt and honest then think again of your behavior because this is what you are. I won't mince words or waste time. If you were offended then that is unfortunate.

Just my two cents here, this game has seen more action in the last couple months than it’s seen in the last few years. Being seeded only has also ruined whatever potential interest I had in the game, but the unfortunate truth is that it’s impossible to know if a run is seeded or not. I’m sorry for the negative feelings here, but I don’t think it’s possible to find a solution to this problem.