If you want a different timing method to be used fair enough (again assuming it doesn't save/lose time for some runs but not others), but you shouldn't just enact it without consulting anyone else.

I think timing currently starts two frames before the buttons disappear.

I agree that the current method is vague, but I believe it is the way it is because how long the last frame lasts is inconsistent or something (you'd have to ask loader for the exact reason). See: .

The start timing could probably be changed without causing any problems, but you'd have to retime every run on the board, as well as obsolete runs.

I'm not fundamentally against changing the timing method if it truly doesn't make a difference, but again it would be a sizable amount of work to retime all the runs.

Are you sure you're using the correct timing method? Because in e.g. your wr video the timer starts on the first frame the difficulty buttons disappear, when it should start on difficulty selection, and ends on the last last frame the the 5th monkey is on screen, when it should end on the first last frame.

because I think they've been timed wrong

I like loader's solution, keeps the leaderboard looking clean, and there won't be any categories with only 2 runs. (Still on board with the earlier discussed suggestions though, if others prefer those)

I can agree with that category selection. I don't really care either way if there is a "no fruit skip" / "vine skip" category or not, but if Burchase and matthritis want it, I'm not opposed. I'd say glitchless should be the main category, as it has most of the runs (they technically qualify for NMG too, but they make more sense in glitchless).

As for the early vine drawing; it's not an intended mechanic. What you're doing is using the crayon hitbox from the previous stage for the next one. This is why if you used this hitbox on stage n, then you can't perform the trick on stage n+1 (and why you can't perform it on stage 1). It's an oversight, they forgot to disable the crayon hitbox when you start drawing from the fruit. It wasn't intended.

Definitely don't allow that in glitchless. If we're gonna have glitchess, it should be without glitches. (except maybe the vine regrab for reasons I mentioned earlier, but I don't think it'd have any significant impact on the leaderboard whether it's allowed or not anyway).

re: glitch/fruit skip; isn't your suggestion just to revert to how it was before all this, except renamed? If so that's the same thing we are arguing for. Or do you want there to be separate fruit skip categories for easy and medium?

(also I'm not sold on calling anything any% that isn't the fruit skip/glitch category, because any% should be the "anything goes" category imo)

it has been fixed

I understand your line of reasoning Motorjam, except why you'd have "no VS/FS" and "no fruit skip", over one of them along with glitchless (or both). Glitchless just makes more sense as a category than "category where glitch A and B are allowed, but not C" and "category where only glitch A is allowed". And from a gameplay standpoint it makes just as much sense as "no fruit skip" (as in glitchless isn't more similar to "no VS/FS" than "no fruit skip" is).

The glitch category discussion just comes down to if you have a bigger problem with a somewhat awkward looking leaderboard layout or with there being redundant categories (easy and medium have the exact same gameplay, which makes AD just doing the same thing twice).

Glitchless should definitely be the main category because it's like 95% of all runs.

I forgot to ask before but should the quick retry 'glitch' be allowed in glitchless? It used to be allowed before all this happened. I'm unsure myself. It's very minor and only saves time on an already suboptimal run. It's more of a quality of life improvement (particularly for medium/all dungeons) than a timesaver. However it is still technically a glitch.

I can largely agree with what you propose Burchase, my one concern is that potential future discoveries might cause problems, and creating a new category every time new tech is found isn't the best solution.

Can we set up a community vote of some kind? Is there even such a thing as the faf community lmao?

Can't believe it's time for meme game leaderboard politics but here we go:

I'm not entirely on board with the current way the leaderboard is setup either. Personally I think there should be a glitchless category like you proposed*. There should also be a "no major glitches"-esque category that bans the fruit skip because there's definitely some interesting stuff involved in vine skip and this new stuff. And finally there should be any% (what used to be glitch). And while on the one hand it does make sense to have a glitch category for easy, medium and all dungeons, from a gameplay perspective they're extremely redundant.

I obviously have a bias here considering I lost wrs due to the new strat, but I think what I proposed makes more sense than the current setup and is future proof in case of new tech. (I don't entirely get why "no fruit skip" is it's own thing either, since vine skip changes less to the gameplay than the new trick does. And what happens when tech gets discovered that's faster than vine skip? That would currently make the "no fruit skip" category pointless).

• Maybe the quick retry should be exempted from the ban to prevent the main leaderboard from getting split up, then again I'm not sure how many runs actually use this, as it is slower than optimal.