Do you have any proof of KH3 preforming like 0.2 on the slower hardware? As far as I know Original PS4 is not capped at 30 FPS like 0.2 unless you activate Stable Mode.

Using IGT is not in universal agreement by the leaderboard mods yet as this is just meant to be a centralized location for information. My personal opinion is that KH3’s IGT is accurate enough to alleviate hardware load time differences while still allowing people to rank on the leaderboards accurately. Most of downsides to IGT are related to dying. As far as I know there are methods to allow RTA times on the leaderboards if a situation arises where “Continue” is necessary in the run and invalidates IGT. Some unique rules for the KH series may be needed since KH3 could be the first console game in the series to use IGT.

Kingdom Hearts III In Game Time. (THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS AS MORE INFORMATION IS FOUND)

In this document we will explore how In Game Time(IGT) works in KH3. Rather than trying to advocate for use of this in speedrunning or not, I simply want to highlight the things we do know and how accurate or inaccurate IGT can be.

First I would like to cover where IGT starts and ends. This is not the same as traditional RTA timing because IGT does not start when you press “Yes” to the “Begin the Game” prompt. IGT actually starts after the first ‘Instagram Load’ is complete and there is the prompt to “Continue Game”. Loads are not counted toward IGT, but this would also eliminate the need to cache the first load of the game to not lose time in RTA. IGT will also continue all the way until the Final Results screen rather than ending on last input or landing the killing blow like KH1 or KH2 would(I am unsure of the other KH game ending times as I have not run them). This is significant because you would be required to skip the final cutscenes in order to have an accurate IGT for the speedrun.

IGT Start: IGT Ending w/o Cutscenes: IGT Ending w/ Cutscenes: (this video may be blocked because of the cutscenes but IGT is longer by about 43 minutes)

Unlike some previous KH games, KH3’s IGT does not account for certain things which makes it more viable as an accurate timing method across consoles. One of the biggest things KH3’s IGT does not count is ‘Instagram Load’ screens nor Room Transitions. This is significant because this will be majority of the loading discrepancies between different hardware setups (SSD/HDD, Pro/Slim).

Unfortunately there are still things that do not count towards IGT that would be convenient if they did. Two such situations are directly related to dying in the run. Idling on the Death Screen does not add to IGT. The other situation where IGT is not increased after a death is if the runner uses Continue instead of Retry. Continue works like KH2 and will reset the state of the game to the last time you had free control of Sora, which also resets the IGT. The biggest situation where “Continue” is likely to cause issues is when the player dies and runs out of items potentially needed to complete the fight, or dying to a random mob fight. Forced mob fights will still give a retry option like any boss, but if Sora somehow dies to an unforced fight you will be forced to use continue. Both of these issues may cause IGT to be invalid for speedruns, or a set of rules would need to be enforced to prevent the runners from abusing these.

Death Screen Idling/Retry:

Another situation we’ve noticed is that the act of opening or closing the menu pauses the IGT for a fraction of a second. The significance of the menu pausing IGT is debatable because if the pause in IGT is consistent across consoles, depending on loads, then it should make no difference. As you can see in this video, it takes 1:08 for the IGT to advance by 1:00.

Situations that should increase the IGT like normal include; Retry, Prepare and Retry, Gameplay, Menus, Pause Screens, Cutscenes, ‘Continue Game’ input after an ‘Instagram Load’. These are all acceptable places for IGT to increase as there is player interaction with the game and where we would want to measure speed. I have not made exact comparisons for these situations but they have individually been tested. I may work to have a more comprehensive set of comparisons but for now I want to get this information out before the embargo lifts.

IGT comparison between two consoles:

There is still much testing to be done but I think for now IGT is a good starting point. Running a RTA timer with the traditional start and end points would still be recommended, as we can always fall back to that if IGT is shown to be inaccurate.

Here a few RTA vs IGT comparisons. Most runners don’t traditionally skip the final cutscenes so it is hard to find accurate comparisons for now.

CrispyMe: 3:52:21 RTA, 3:27:36 IGT, 24:45 Difference Ninten866: 3:51:14 RTA, 3:25:58 IGT, 25:16 Difference Saiyanz: 4:33:42 RTA, 4:09:01 IGT, 24:41 Difference

All three of these runs are on PS4 Pro SSD and we see that there’s about a 25 minute difference between RTA and IGT. Once more runs are done on other setups those will be looked into but so far at least Pro SSD seems to be mostly consistent. For now I will try to track differences in the times on this spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yyiw9lIx-Fu8FjyAvjMbwa6KRWVgMHEcU3LBNGm0n40/edit?usp=sharing.

Is there a reason why one is not able to apply for multiple consoles of the same game? While I do understand the move to game specific mods, I do not think it would be necessary to have different mods for each, for example, KH2 game. While 2FM/2Eng and 2FMHD have their differences I do not think they are different enough to split them between mods.

I've never heard of this but I wouldn't be surprised if it's extremely rare but possible. I don't fight Sephiroth commonly so I don't have many opportunities to see it. Since there's no video, unless someone else has experienced it I can't really say much.

This discussion honestly shouldn't even involve what the mods do/need to do. We should be discussing whether we want to require timers on submitted runs and the pros and cons of it. It is then up to the mods to enforce the rules set forth regardless of how much work and effort it takes.

What are we even "discussing" anymore.

Requiring a VOD without any drops or hiccups is no less of a burden than asking for a timer on the screen.

We argue that having at timer for someone who streams directly from the PS4 is a burden but at the same time we try to argue people should just local record if their internet is a risk. And I would assume, that if they are streaming directly from the PS4, they do not have a capture card to enable them to locally record in the first place.

We argue that some people don't like having a timer on screen but a lot of speedrunners stream/record with the timer already.

We argue that its hard to learn off a WR VOD that is missing parts is a burden, but is asking another runner for help or watching other PBs or live streams really so unacceptable?

We argue that requiring a timer puts burden on the runners but is it correct to put more burden on the mods?

For every situation there is a counter situation that can have a valid argument. So where will the debate end?

As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter what's right or wrong because nothing will ever please everyone. Does having to retime a 4 hour pb suck? Yes. Does not being able to submit a run because your stream cut out for 30 seconds out of 4 hours suck? Yes. What do both result in? 4 hours of extra invested time to retime the video or get a new pb with a full vod.

This isn't even delving into the idea that most people don't even submit every pb and generally wait until they reach a specific goal. Learderboards do not demand you submit every PB nor should they but they should reflect someone's best time as a form of competition. It is someone's choice to retime a pb for submission because they didn't originally have a timer on screen or they can choose to attempt another run to get a even better time and then submit that PB.

I'm tired of the simple argument that "required timers are stupid". We can sit here countering each others arguments all day but that isn't getting us anywhere. I believe the timer rule is fair and I see no problems with keeping the rule. And that's the last I'll say about this topic.

Would need clarification, but AFAIK the 2 run rule has been redacted or is currently not being enforced. And the big difference to me between a category with no runs and a console with no runs is just that. Many categories have runs on different versions. For example, KH2FMHD PS4 Standard Any% does not have a run yet but has had runs done on PS3 so it makes sense to keep the category on PS4. This doesn't apply to every empty category but for the majority it does.

A BC PS3 is a console specific thing as opposed to a category/difficulty specific thing. The definition of the rule is also talking about comparing PS3 to PS2 times or making a console a specific category so that the leaderboards aren't skewed to faster loads. That is another discussion and I know other communities do approve of this but the KH community in general has been against comparing significant load differences on the same leaderboard. (KH2FM PS2 vs KH2FMHD PS3).

Ultimately the ruling is looking at comparing a console/loading difference for the same category rather than comparing different categories. Therefore I don't understand why the rule would apply to currently empty categories.

P.S. The strawpoll was between leaderboard mods who were making a decision on how to mod the leaderboards, so it makes that only the leaderboard mods voted on the strawpoll.

The rule has already been added to most of the games.

Critical Mode gets extra abilities at the very start of the run, including a Finishing Plus. You should be equipping all of these abilities right before Twilight Thorn(excluding exp0).

The definition of "one combo" changes throughout the run and generally the best way to know is to watch a video. For most of the run until after 1k heartless your primary finisher will be Finishing Leap. As a result of this "one combo" generally means two hits with a Finishing Leap finisher. However after you get Rumbling Rose you will be equipping Guard Break which will result in your combos generally being 2 hits with Guard Break and an additional finisher, generally being Finishing Leap or Reflect.

There are several things about enemy AI that can not be explained or shown in a video unfortunately and most runners just have to know these things. Most of them are positional or revenge value based and runners generally react to these on the fly or know exactly when they are hitting it. In the example of Timeless River Pete, if you do not stagger him correctly after his opening move and you are right next to you he will generally throw Fire Crackers or try to punch you. I am not familiar with the Genie Start on Demyx but I would advise checking out the Master Form strat. Demyx is also one of the first fights in the run that will heavily punish you for not managing his revenge value correctly.

Anti points should not be any different and I have not heard of any runners getting anti form on beserkers unless they made a mistake. The anti point route is routed so that beserkers is your last safe drive in critical mode before you get Limit/Master Form. One more and you will have a chance at anti form.

I think it's fine. If the video proof was not officially implemented until now there is no reason to retroactively apply the rule.

Overall I agree with most of the opinions posted on both sides and they're all valid points, but I think the main issue comes to what people believe the leaderboards should be.

I do not believe all hobbies are inherently competitive, and the essence of speedrunning is simply beating the game (or category) as fast as possible. Most hobbies start off as just having fun and eventually you branch out to things like competing with other people. I think to this purpose leaderboards provide a place where people can compare and contrast their runs, and I think in anything competitive there needs to proof or verification that the runs are legitimate. Just because a time is above a "cut-off" point does not mean there isn't competition in that area. However, I do not believe leaderboards are necessary to be apart of a community and being a speedrunner, it is a tool that runners can refer to.

From reading all the posts it seems like people disagree on where to draw the line between just having fun with a hobby and actually competing. Even if people can't get recording equipment I think they should still be proud of their accomplishments. I think part of the issue is that people want to share their new PB times, and they should be able to, even if they can't record it. Unfortunately, currently the easiest way to do that, in a place where the community will look, is on the leaderboards. I can't confirm if there are actually any people that have this issue but I think it is a valid concern. Maybe there could be a forum where people can post unverified PBs?

If someone is unsure if they want to to commit to speedrunning then I would encourage them to give it a try and do a couple of runs. You don't need a leaderboard to tell you if you're having enough fun to want to continue the hobby, and like many people have said for a 2 hour+ hobby $9 is not that big of an investment assuming you already have the console and game.

From another perspective, as a new runner with a relatively slow time(probably above any reasonable cut-off point), if I get bopped by someone I personally would be interested in watching their run rather than just having a time inserted above mine.

With regards to the handhelds I don't have much of an opinion because I don't know much about them but from what I read there seem like legitimate reasons for why exceptions need to be made.

I believe leaderboards should be a place for competing against other people and not just a list of all runners and their PBs, and unfortunately to me that means runs need to be verified with video proof or some other reliable method, and should be applied uniformly.