During my attempts today I managed to accidentally cause the following glitch entering the door to the lava frog area:

Notice the door fanfare doesn't play, and Toki Tori immediately enters the door. This saved about 3 seconds. I have literally no idea how this happened, but if either of you guys have any thoughts, this would be a tremendously useful time save. (As far as I know all I did was press up when I got to the door.)

I highlighted the entire run in question. Here's a link to the specific point where the skip happens:

I've been thinking recently about the way we time runs of this game. Currently it's based on the way I set it up when I started in 2013 - time starts when you land on the ground and "gain control" of Toki Tori. However, upon reflection this is the wrong way to do it, because you can chirp while descending to lure the nearby bird - and in fact, all current runs do this, to my knowledge.

My proposal would be to change timing to begin as soon as the screen starts fading in from the "delete saved data" blackout effect. This would probably add about 4ish seconds to all existing runs, but the timing would then include all time where the player has control of the character. Thoughts?

Unrelated to the big menu storage discussion, two other proposed rule changes have come up. This thread is for discussing these proposed changes.

BANNING PRE-RUN MENU STORAGE

The proposed change is to ban storing any menus before the start of a run. This makes it so that actions in one run can't affect a separate run, except through the intended New Game+ mechanics. This topic wasn't included in the other menu storage thread because it seems non-controversial.

This rule change will be implemented on August 7 if no one has any objections.

VIDEO EVIDENCE FOR SUBMISSIONS

This point was a little more contentious. A request was made to exempt some run submissions from the video proof requirement. The argument is that for runs below a certain rank threshold or time threshold, there's not always a vital need to absolutely ensure the validity of such times.

That said, we have had the current video requirement in place since the speedrun.com leaderboard was created in 2014. It doesn't seem to have caused much of a problem in the past, and recording your runs continues to become easier. This doesn't necessarily mean that no one has been affected by this requirement, though.

Unless there are strong arguments in favor of this proposal, no changes will be made.

Recently several new skips have been discovered in Bastion, all centering around the ability to "store" menus to use at a later time. The purpose of this thread is to determine whether these tricks will be permitted or not permitted in our various categories, and whether or not new categories should be created. Even if you have previously shared your thoughts in the Discord, please repeat them here so we have a formal record.

WHAT IS MENU STORAGE?

Bastion's user interface does weird things if you perform two different interactions with it on the same frame. Most commonly, on the main menu you can mouse over the "Story" mode option and press Escape and Enter simultaneously. The Escape action causes the game to send you back to the splash screen, while the Enter action loads the Story mode menu. These events both occur, so that you now have two menus open. Other menus in the game may be stored (effectively, duplicated) using similar techniques.

TYPES OF MENU STORAGE

There are three known types of menu storage that are useful to speedruns:

Main menu storage: as described above, you can duplicate the main menu by pressing Escape and Enter simultaneously while mousing over the Story option. If you are able to select "Story" > "Continue" while already in the game, you will be sent back to your respawn point from wherever you are, with any progress you had made preserved. While you are in this state, the main menu completely covers the screen and you cannot see gameplay at all.

Main menu storage with no background: this involves a more complicated setup than normal main menu storage. Exit your game, duplicate the main menu, select "Continue", then duplicate the main menu again. After you load into the game, wait until the Kid falls to the ground, then click "Continue" and after a brief moment press Enter. The result should be that you have the main menu covering the center third of the screen, with the sides both visible. This setup does not work in all circumstances and we're still researching why it works.

Confirmation storage: when leaving the Distillery with empty spirit slots, the game will want to ask if you are sure. Before it displays this confirmation, if you simultaneously click the Continue button and press Escape, it will present two confirmation screens. After confirming one of them, the game will allow you to move freely while keeping a confirmation dialog visible. While you are in this state, the entire screen is partially obscured by the transparent confirmation screen. This can remove certain affects applied to the Kid.

SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS OF MENU STORAGE

There are four specific applications of the menu storage techniques described above:

Hanging Gardens cutscene skip: after Hanging Gardens, you can set up main menu storage and "Continue" once to start the cutscene, then again to cause the game to skip. This saves around 8 seconds and is already known and used in all categories.

Tazal Terminals slowdown skips: confirmation storage can be used in Tazal Terminals to remove the slowdown effects applied on the last two screens of the level. You can use it on the Battering Ram screen to restore your rolls and exit without picking up the Ram; or you can use it on the last screen to regain normal speed, at the cost of taking triple damage. The former skip is thought to save around 10-20 seconds, while the latter saves around 40 seconds. You can do both slowdown skips, but storing two confirmation screens almost completely hides the gameplay.

Partial level skips: after picking up the core in a given level, you can "Continue" using a stored main menu to return to the Bastion with the cores still in your inventory. This saves varying amounts of time depending on which level, but requires you to reach the core with the center of the screen covered by the main menu.

Wharf District duplication: the same principle as partial level skips, but applied in the Wharf District area. Since you haven't reached the Bastion yet, the game respawns you on the same screen when you "Continue" instead of sending you to the Bastion. Again, requires you to play with the center of the screen covered by the main menu.

WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?

Menu storage is kind of a Pandora's box, and there is great potential for it to alter our various categories in ways that makes them significantly less fun or less competitive. As an example, the fastest route might involve completing Wharf District 7 times, then finishing the game immediately. Even with less repetition of Wharf District, there's still a lot of potential for playing the game with the majority of the interesting action covered by the main menu. To many people, this doesn't seem particularly fun to play or to watch.

DISCUSSION SO FAR

These summaries are NOT intended to suggest we have already reached any decisions. They are simply summaries of discussion which has happened. All of the below topics, and any others you may think of, are available for discussion in this thread. Please share your thoughts accordingly.

Pure any% category: so far the community has generally expressed support for at least one category which permits all of the tech that we know about, including all forms of menu storage. It seems to make the most sense for this category to be called "any%" - complete the game as fast as possible with no restrictions.

"Old any%" category: several runners expressed a preference for keeping a category which more closely resembles the current any% route. One such proposal would be to create "any% no main menu storage." On the one hand, this category might be more popular due to not involving effectively blind movement. On the other hand, it might simply stagnate. There's also a question of how older runs would be categorized. Additionally, "no main menu storage" would invalidate and obsolete effectively all of the top end runs in the current any% category. However, maybe that's not avoidable?

New intermediate category between any% and ASL: at least one runner proposed that the gap created in the absence of the current any% route could be filled via an alternative category, e.g. All Weapons or The Culture. So far these categories have not achieved much traction yet, but perhaps they'll pick up as any% gets shorter and shorter.

Ban partial level skips in ASL: the majority so far are in support of prohibiting partial level skips in ASL (via unspecified rules changes). Such skips are generally seen to go against the spirit of the category of completing all of the stages in the game. That said, banning specifically these skips without banning other forms of main menu storage could result in needlessly complex and confusing rules, creating ambiguity later on.

Hanging Gardens cutscene skip in ASL: banning one form of main menu storage in ASL may necessitate banning another form of it - the HG cutscene skip. Many runners expressed disapproval for banning this cutscene skip because everybody uses it, and all such times would either be invalidated, require grandfathering in, or need to be retimed according to some rule. None of these options seems particularly enticing. However, it might not be straightforward to craft an understandable rule that preserves this skip while banning partial level skips.

Keep Tazal Terminals slowdown skips in ASL: so far the general consensus favors allowing confirmation storage in ASL to permit TT slowdown skips. These skips do make the final stage somewhat difficult to play and watch, but they are generally seen as a cool new routing development and a legitimate method of going fast without violating the category's spirit.

Question for discussion: what glitches should we consider as "major" glitches for the purposes of defining a "no major glitches" category?

After some chat on Discord, we determined that there was some interest in creating a possible "no major glitches" category for Ori. However, in order to do this, we must reach some agreement on what constitutes a "major" glitch. The overall goals of this category are roughly as follows:

• Provide a less "broken" category of the game for people who want something closer to the intended experience.
• Provide a category that is substantially distinct from other categories of the game.
• Provide a category where movement optimization and basic gameplay are highlighted more than specific tricks.

In order to achieve these goals, some glitches will be disallowed. The question is, which glitches will we consider major? To start the discussion, here is a list of glitches which are and are not disallowed in my "glitchless" category. This is NOT a list of rules for the proposed "no major glitches" category.

DISALLOWED:

• Save glitches (saving and reloading to skip or regain control during a cutscene)
• Save anywhere (storing the ability menu and learning an ability to save without a Soul Link)
• Save drops (saving in midair to respawn Ori on lower ground)
• Teleport anywhere (storing the teleport menu to teleport without a Spirit Well)
• Keystone duplication (dying at a specific point to cause keystones to respawn in the world and in your inventory)
• Double bashing (performing two bashes two frames apart on the same enemy to follow it in midair)
• Out of bounds (anything that places Ori outside the clearly defined physical boundaries of the game world)
• Clipping through any solid object or boundary
• Using Bash to pass through the small gap in the rocks in Sorrow Pass

ALLOWED:

• Bash gliding (preserving the horizontal speed of a Bash by releasing all directional input)
• Dash gliding (same mechanism as Bash gliding, but with Dash followed by a jump)
• Disabling the UI (press alt-U)
• Moving enemies into advantageous positions using normal movement or Bash
• Using enemy projectiles or something other than the intended means (e.g. Stomp) to break a barrier
• Manipulating a level up to achieve a timely health/energy refill or damage enemies

It seems to be generally agreed that save glitches (i.e. using Rekindle or learning an ability to regain control during a cutscene) should NOT be considered a "major" glitch. However, please feel free to share your thoughts on any and all of these glitches. "Just go all the way glitchless" is a valid response.

Question for discussion: should the "all skills no OOB" category be changed to permit out of bounds and clips?

After some chat on Discord, we determined that there was some interest in creating a possible "no major glitches" category for Ori. At the same time, in order to differentiate all skills more strongly from this new category, we considered the possibility of changing "all skills no OOB" to permit out of bounds.

In answering this question, it is probably worth considering whether the resulting route would actually be substantially different from other routes of the game. For example, it's possible that permitting OOB might mean that the fastest way to beat the game is to return to Ginso at the end and OOB from there to the ending, as in any%. This might actually make the category worse. Of course, you may have other reasons why you feel this change should or should not be made.

"Don't change things" is a viable answer. If enough folks feel that the category is fine as it is, then no changes will be made. NOTE: teleport anywhere will be allowed in the category either way.

Hey everyone,

A few conversations in people's streams and in Discord have led me to believe that there's sufficient interest in a "glitchless" category to warrant finally introducing one. The intent of this category would be to limit the use of unintended mechanics to those which are simply extensions of available movement options in game. Here's my proposal for things which would be banned under this category definition:

• No use of Rekindle or learning abilities to skip cutscenes.
• No storage of menus (i.e. save anywhere/teleport anywhere).
• No use of save drops.
• No duplication of items.
• No clips or out of bounds.

And here's a proposed list of things which would ¤not¤ be banned under this category definition:

• Disabling the UI.
• Bash gliding and dash gliding.
• Double bashing.
• Moving enemies into advantageous positions using normal movement or bash.
• Using enemy projectiles or something other than the intended means to break a barrier.
• Manipulating a level up to achieve a timely health/energy refill or damage an enemy.

Here are some specific tricks that would ¤NOT¤ be banned. This is not an exhaustive list, i.e. there might be stuff I forgot to include that would still be allowed:

• Frog walk
• Iceless
• Ginso corruption skip
• "Stompless" method of breaking the rocks above Kuro's head
• All forms of Sorrow Bash except the ones that involve save anywhere
• Both variants of frog juggle

So here are the two big questions:

1. Do you believe this category should exist/would you run this category?
2. Do you agree with the proposed category rules? If not, what modifications would you suggest?

(edit: emphasized that the list of tricks is stuff I would ¤NOT¤ ban)