New South Wales, Australia
SupporterI renamed it to (No OOB/ No Infinite Jump) It should be much clearer then.
I think the Liu Kang "fire invinicibility" should be allowed. Same with Scorpion flame dash movement and using spikes on corpeses to reach higher areas.
This way the category name implies what it means more accurately. Banning of the two strats which I would consider "excessively intrusive to gameplay".
If we happen to get a lot more runners one day we can revisit the idea of a "purist" category.
Between platform separation, emu/hardware separation and sp vs co-op, the leaderboard is already fragmented enough.
The category already bans "infinite jump". "Infinite jump and Out of bounds" are the two things banned in glitchless.
Renaming the category to "No OOB/ Infinite Jump" might be a good solution as well.
What @Elfinout says regarding "making characters fair" is also true. It's impossible, one will always come out on top eventually.
[quote] The Glitchless category was created with the intention of FACILITATING the race so that even beginning players can compete in the cleanest way possible. [/quote]
This is already accomplished with the current rules set as the only allowed shortcuts are easy/reasonable to perform and don't require infinite jumps or out of bounds method.
The rules are pretty simple as is:
-
No Infinite jump
-
No Out of Bounds
-
If you can do a shortcut using "normal moves" and no infinite jump or out of bounds, then it is allowed.
This:
- Keeps the run approachable to newcomers.
- Maintains the majority of "natural" gameplay.
- Allows for potential further evolution to the route if new tricks are discovered which don't involve Infinite jump or out of bounds glitches.
- Is easier to verify and maintain rules for as it keeps the rules simple and is easily observable if someone used an infinite jump or got out of bounds.
If we disallow shortcuts as well then:
- Still true
- Still true
- The route is locked into specifically beating every section in the game with no chance of discovering new techniques.
- Is much harder to keep a clear rules. Much like MarlonChaves suggested, we would have to define what counts as a shortcut and what doesnt. It's a long and arduous process and can constantly change as more possibilities are discovered.
Banning shortcuts doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion.
Furthermore, just .. banning shortcuts which are not difficult to perform and are performed using legitimate in game strats is pretty unorthodox in speedrunning. Usually people want to skip whatever sections they can. I don't really understand why you would want to ban it.
Again .. I am willing to make the rules based on how the community wants.
But consider what I am saying. These shortcuts are not "glitches" ... they are creatively using intended strategies of the game.
So, just consider that and what it means to not allow it. It means that the route is set in stone and there is no room for creativity if you don't allow them or allow discovering of new tricks that also perform more "shortcuts".
If this is what everyone agrees, I can amend the rules to include "no skips/shortcuts".
I don't really understand why there is a need for this rule though. I can understand not wanting to perform infinite jumps or out of bounds strategies as they can be monotonous and game breaking, but skipping sections and performing the game faster is one of the core benefits of speedrunning.
Furthermore it can be slippery slope determining what "is or isn't" a shortcut. If scorpion jumps across a small gap with his flame dash, is that a shortcut? If a someone puts a corpse in a spike and jumps on it, is that a shortcut?
The so called "shortcuts" you are describing seem more like "intended strategies" that are being used creatively rather than breaking the game. They aren't glitches. It doesn't make any sense to not allow them from a speedrunning perspective.
Disallowing infinite jump or out of bounds does make sense because it directly impacts gameplay significantly and is easily definable as to whether or not it breaks the rules. Not allowing shortcuts "of any kind" is much harder to make rules for and doesn't really change the gameplay for the better.
Yes. Remix is seen as the same game functionally.
If there is a considerable difference in gameplay found, we may create a seperate category for it, but IIRC the only differences the game contains are visual and not to the extent which affect lag or performance in anyway.
I think he means a run of the demo version of the game. I don't even remember there being a demo for the VR version .. but it makes sense that there would be one I suppose.
I don't really see the need imo. The board/community isnt "that active" .. I doubt it would get many runners.
Seems to me like the majority has spoken more or less.
I'll add the category today. As far as I know only Kromer and Elfinout exploited Infinite Jump/OOB in the All Medallions runs so those would be the only runs put in the All Medallions category, everything else counts as glitchless. If theres something I missed, please let me know.
Hi guys.
We have just had a run submitted that uses "infinite jump"/"out of bounds" strategies in the All Medallions category. It is not claiming a WR as of yet but it is not far behind, it's evident that similar strategies to any% can be used effectively in the All Medallions category.
I would like to see if there are any strong opinions about having a glitchless category which would ban these strategies as it does drastically change the gameplay for the All Medallions run. I'm currently of the opinion that a glitchless category would be better as most people seem to want to do All Medallions to get away from the Any% strategies.
However, there is still no reason why the game can't/shouldn't be ran All Medallions with glitches.
Please post your opinions in this thread. If there are no strong responses we will rename the current All Medallions category to "Glitchless" and create a new category for the new runs exploiting glitches to obtain all medallions.
Edit: This is the run in question:
LOL wow ok .. so I would have asked the run be rejected simply because of the reasons I stated previously. But to make matters worse, the runner is cheating on top of that. You can see that the footage is artificially sped up during loading sequences. The obvious place being at 1:19. You can see the "Round 1, Fight" snaps into place way too quickly (something that can't be sped up by legitimately mashing buttons).
@skill8d
This run did not show difficulty, is performed on an innacurate emulator on mobile phone and has a listed time of 4:50 when even in the video its shown as 9:58.
Edit: Also the run is cheated. It uses an artificial speed up method (probably an emulator fast-forward button) to gain time inbetween matches/rounds. Easily noticeable at 1:19 where the "round 1 / fight" message is sped up (impossible to do via in-game means).
Please reject this run. I mean you already had the leaderboard wiped once due to people not properly following the rules regarding difficulty.
I don't really understand how it can be too hard to just look at a video before verifying it even if its for just a few seconds to check that it follows the rules.
If you are having trouble performing your moderator duties, please give moderator to someone who is willing put in a little more effort. I'm willing to help out myself. If you are uncomfortable with that, then there are a number of people I could nominate for the job such as @DustyTokyo or @habble.
Hi guys.
I wanted to make sure everyone is aware of a new rule we have added for the Klassic Towers runs. We have implemented a new rule for runners who perform their run offline:
- Runs recorded offline must include the final run summary screen shown after the credits.
- Runs that are live-streamed are not upheld to this requirement.
The decision to add this rule comes after we have had to reject a run for splicing. The summary screen contains information regarding the run on it and will show any round losses as well as flawless victories/brutalities etc. This should make it considerably harder for someone to splice a run as they would have to also fake this screen as well.
We are still fairly confident in all of the currently submitted runs on the leaderboard and don't see the need to remove any. However we ask that all future runs show the summary screen from now on, specifically if your run was not live streamed.
It is a fairly simple requirement which just means you have to show or skip the ending/credits and return to the tower select screen after the run.
Please adhere to this new requirement as we are going to begin enforcing it heavily from this point forward.
Sorry for any inconvenience and good luck.
-Tenka
Category has been added. I took the liberty of submitting the run on your behalf.
GG man! Nice run!
Alright guys,
Its been long enough. For the most part the response to the changes from actual runners has been either positive or indifferent. We're gonna pull the trigger and start implementing the changes tomorrow.
Last chance to have your voice heard.
Alright guys,
Its been long enough. For the most part the response to the changes from actual runners has been either positive or indifferent. We're gonna pull the trigger and start implementing the changes tomorrow.
Last chance to have your voice heard.
Alright guys,
Its been long enough. For the most part the response to the changes from actual runners has been either positive or indifferent. We're gonna pull the trigger and start implementing the changes tomorrow.
Last chance to have your voice heard.
Alright guys,
Its been long enough. For the most part the response to the changes from actual runners has been either positive or indifferent. We're gonna pull the trigger and start implementing the changes tomorrow.
Last chance to have your voice heard.
@grassini In regards to #1, You can't "partially" do HPT, because the rules have a quantified ability to define any amount of HPT and it is banned. HPT occurs when the enemy does a single frame of attack inbetween when it is taking punches which resets the AI's stumble back buffer (The hidden number for the amount of hits to make the AI stumble back). This is visually confirmable/verifiable and any amount of it is banned. You may be worried "wont it just accidentally happen and cause a bunch of frustration?", well actually no, the timing required to perform HPT is VERY specific and it is almost impossible to do it accidentally.
Punching to make the enemy stumble back IS still allowed, and can/has been used with some existing NHPT strategies. The NHPT/NME categories already exists on the Category extensions board of MK2,MK3 and UMK3 and have already recieved pretty extensive competition in which new strategies wildly different and more complex than HPT are used:
https://www.speedrun.com/umk3ce https://www.speedrun.com/mk3ce https://www.speedrun.com/mkiice
As for it just "not being the fastest way to run the game", neither is a glitchless category or a 100% category, but many boards still offer those. Getting stuck in "its not the fastest so it shouldn't be recognized" is a flawed argument. There are many different approaches to speedrunning and we'd like to offer categories that we feel would maximize interest in the leaderboard.
As for #2, no one said anything about hiding anything. The current main category for "Credit Skip" .. or whatever we choose to call it, will still remain the main category.
As for #3, whether or not Soundless or "Soundful" should be the main category is still up in the air, (If anyone wants to chime in with opinions here it is welcome). From the opinions I've already heard though I think it would indicate there is more a desire to have "requiring sound" be the main category.
As for #4, the IL board is out of view from the main leaderboard. We arent changing the main leaderboard at all in regards to individual characters, both the IL board and the Full Run leaderboard will be available at the same time, with the full run leaderboard remaining the default view as it is now. The IL leaderboard will remain "relatively hidden" since the user would have to specifically click on it to see it, so I dont see how it "clogs" anything. I already gave example links in the original post for you to look at if you are confused about how this works.
Yes, the 4 main categories as you stated will be: Standard, No CS, NME, and Any%
As for No Smoking, Currently the plan in regards to "No Smoking" is we'll just leave it on the Category Extensions board for now. It still kinda represents the "meme status" of "the best not-smoke run", which kinda makes it appropriate for Category Extensions. It's not really hurting anyone, but if everyone agrees we dont need it we can remove it. Alternatively we could just make it "miscellaneous" instead as well..
Hello everyone,
As the community slowly continues to grow and different categories and different ways of speedrunning the games are becoming more popular, there have been many requests to change some of the ways in which the categories for each of these games are represented on the leaderboards.
The following are some changes that we feel may help make certain categories more approachable and better represented on the leaderboard.
1. Moving No HPT/ No Major Exploits / Any% categories from category extension into the main categories as a sub-category.
We feel that the NME/NHPT categories represented a much desired way to speedrun the game. They are essentially the equivalent of what could be considered "Glitchless" as far as Mortal Kombat is concerned. While “High Punch Trick” (HPT) is a lot more challenging and a lot more fun than it looks, it does devolve the speedrun significantly by removing a large strategic portion of the game which can otherwise be a very complex and enjoyable part of speedrunning.
The NHPT/NME categories have since received a considerable amount of competition proving that there is a desire to run the game this way and therefore we feel it deserves its spot on the main leaderboard as opposed to being on the Category Extensions Board.
In Regards to WolfMAME INP requirements on No HPT/NME/Any%: Our approach to the Category Extensions board has generally been "its for fun, its for the memes" etc, and we have not enforced any harsh requirements for them. However we feel that moving it into a main category does necessitate the need for more appropriate legitimacy requirements on the top runs. Therefore we would like to require WolfMAME INP's for NME/No HPT/Any% for any top time runs in these categories going forward.
This requirement will be implemented the same way it is required for the current main category runs (only required if the run is faster than a certain threshold). NOTE: We aren’t disputing any currently submitting runs for these categories and current runs with no INP will NOT be removed, it is specifically a requirement "from this point forward" and will NOT retro-actively disqualify any runs from the leaderboard.
Most people who are running in these categories are already using INP's anyway, but the ones who aren’t are strongly advised to learn how to record a WolfMAME INP if they wish to continue running these categories at sub-threshold times. You can find a guide on how to do this in any of the guide sections for MK1,2,3,U3 and if you have any trouble getting it to work PLEASE CONTACT ME. I will walk you through it.
Currently we are only intending to make these changes for the "Arcade" platform categories. However if you would like to see similar sub-categories implemented for some of the consoles where these categories can apply, please let us know.
2. Mortal Kombat 3/Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 - Renaming of "Credit Skip" category to "Standard".
As it currently is, whether or not Credit Skip is used is a binary choice and the category names reflect that. However with the addition of NME and Any% sub categories it then becomes a little bit more confusing which category is the "main" category to anyone observing the leaderboard.
We feel that "Credit Skip" should still be considered the main category, it represents what we feel is the basic way of running the game (Hardest difficulty, Hardest Tower, Anything goes). To reflect this, "Standard" is the best name we could come up with to make it obvious to anyone observing. Suggestions for a better name are welcome.
3. (SNES) Mortal Kombat 3/ Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 - Separating Soundless runs into a sub-category.
Back when the Soundless exploit was found on SNES MK3/UMK3, there was some discussion about whether or not it should be allowed. The community was smaller and there was no complaints or issues about allowing the exploit and the main runners at the time were happy to go ahead using it so we allowed it.
However since then multiple people have made it known to us that they don't wish to run the game this way and it has squashed any appeal the speedrun might have had. We don’t believe in unnecessarily disqualifying runs on a technicality so we are planning to move all runs that abused turning off sound to a separate category that we will call "Soundless". Hopefully this will make running MK3/UMK3 on SNES much more appealing to onlookers and hopefully generate some more runners.
4. Using the "Individual Levels" Leaderboard for "Character Specific" runs.
The main categories have done a lot to keep the speedrun simple and approachable and digging into the game to find "which character is the fastest" for any given category has been a fairly challenging endeavour. Seeing the title of "Optimal character" change over the years has been quite interesting and in some cases I believe it is still yet to be proven, (MK3 in particular).
However there is a lot left to be discovered and lot more fun to be had running the game by trying to master certain specific characters. The current method of just using a filter with the "Character Variable" is far from satisfying, and frankly most people dont even know how to use filters on the leaderboard so any visibility or credit you could get from mastering a specific non-optimal character of your choice is basically non-existent. We would like to give runners a better way of going for these goals, however we also like the way the current speedrun categories work and don't want to disrupt it or convolute the leaderboard with 10+ main categories to support every character.
The best alternative we have found on some of the other leaderboards we moderate is to use the Individual Levels leaderboard and make each character a "Level", see Example for Street Fighter III: Third Strike - Main category: https://www.speedrun.com/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike , IL categories: https://www.speedrun.com/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike/individual_levels. The individual level leaderboard will not affect the main leaderboard categories in any way and if you dont like it, you can literally just ignore it. Any runs submitted can qualify for both the main category runs AND its respective Individual character run simultaneously and you may submit the same run to both categories if you wish.
We hope that these changes accurately reflect community desires. Making these changes will cause a lot of work for us since we will need to copy a lot of runs from one leaderboard to another. Please give us feedback on your thoughts about these changes, we will NOT be making any of these changes if there is any significant objection from the community. We want to make sure that any decisions comply with what the community wishes to see, so please comment down below with your feedback.
Hello everyone,
As the community slowly continues to grow and different categories and different ways of speedrunning the games are becoming more popular, there have been many requests to change some of the ways in which the categories for each of these games are represented on the leaderboards.
The following are some changes that we feel may help make certain categories more approachable and better represented on the leaderboard.
1. Moving No HPT/ No Major Exploits / Any% categories from category extension into the main categories as a sub-category.
We feel that the NME/NHPT categories represented a much desired way to speedrun the game. They are essentially the equivalent of what could be considered "Glitchless" as far as Mortal Kombat is concerned. While “High Punch Trick” (HPT) is a lot more challenging and a lot more fun than it looks, it does devolve the speedrun significantly by removing a large strategic portion of the game which can otherwise be a very complex and enjoyable part of speedrunning.
The NHPT/NME categories have since received a considerable amount of competition proving that there is a desire to run the game this way and therefore we feel it deserves its spot on the main leaderboard as opposed to being on the Category Extensions Board.
In Regards to WolfMAME INP requirements on No HPT/NME/Any%: Our approach to the Category Extensions board has generally been "its for fun, its for the memes" etc, and we have not enforced any harsh requirements for them. However we feel that moving it into a main category does necessitate the need for more appropriate legitimacy requirements on the top runs. Therefore we would like to require WolfMAME INP's for NME/No HPT/Any% for any top time runs in these categories going forward.
This requirement will be implemented the same way it is required for the current main category runs (only required if the run is faster than a certain threshold). NOTE: We aren’t disputing any currently submitted runs for these categories and current runs with no INP will NOT be removed, it is specifically a requirement "from this point forward" and will NOT retro-actively disqualify any runs from the leaderboard.
Most people who are running in these categories are already using INP's anyway, but the ones who aren’t are strongly advised to learn how to record a WolfMAME INP if they wish to continue running these categories at sub-threshold times. You can find a guide on how to do this in any of the guide sections for MK1,2,3,U3 and if you have any trouble getting it to work PLEASE CONTACT ME. I will walk you through it.
Currently we are only intending to make these changes for the "Arcade" platform categories. However if you would like to see similar sub-categories implemented for some of the consoles where these categories can apply, please let us know.
2. Mortal Kombat 3/Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 - Renaming of "Credit Skip" category to "Standard".
As it currently is, whether or not Credit Skip is used is a binary choice and the category names reflect that. However with the addition of NME and Any% sub categories it then becomes a little bit more confusing which category is the "main" category to anyone observing the leaderboard.
We feel that "Credit Skip" should still be considered the main category, it represents what we feel is the basic way of running the game (Hardest difficulty, Hardest Tower, Anything goes). To reflect this, "Standard" is the best name we could come up with to make it obvious to anyone observing. Suggestions for a better name are welcome.
3. (SNES) Mortal Kombat 3/ Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 - Separating Soundless runs into a sub-category.
Back when the Soundless exploit was found on SNES MK3/UMK3, there was some discussion about whether or not it should be allowed. The community was smaller and there was no complaints or issues about allowing the exploit and the main runners at the time were happy to go ahead using it so we allowed it.
However since then multiple people have made it known to us that they don't wish to run the game this way and it has squashed any appeal the speedrun might have had. We don’t believe in unnecessarily disqualifying runs on a technicality so we are planning to move all runs that abused turning off sound to a separate category that we will call "Soundless". Hopefully this will make running MK3/UMK3 on SNES much more appealing to onlookers and hopefully generate some more runners.
4. Using the "Individual Levels" Leaderboard for "Character Specific" runs.
The main categories have done a lot to keep the speedrun simple and approachable and digging into the game to find "which character is the fastest" for any given category has been a fairly challenging endeavour. Seeing the title of "Optimal character" change over the years has been quite interesting and in some cases I believe it is still yet to be proven, (MK3 in particular).
However there is a lot left to be discovered and lot more fun to be had running the game by trying to master certain specific characters. The current method of just using a filter with the "Character Variable" is far from satisfying, and frankly most people dont even know how to use filters on the leaderboard so any visibility or credit you could get from mastering a specific non-optimal character of your choice is basically non-existent. We would like to give runners a better way of going for these goals, however we also like the way the current speedrun categories work and don't want to disrupt it or convolute the leaderboard with 10+ main categories to support every character.
The best alternative we have found on some of the other leaderboards we moderate is to use the Individual Levels leaderboard and make each character a "Level", see Example for Street Fighter III: Third Strike - Main category: https://www.speedrun.com/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike , IL categories: https://www.speedrun.com/street_fighter_iii_3rd_strike/individual_levels
The individual level leaderboard will not affect the main leaderboard categories in any way and if you dont like it, you can literally just ignore it. Any runs submitted can qualify for both the main category runs AND its respective Individual character run simultaneously and you may submit the same run to both categories if you wish.
We hope that these changes accurately reflect community desires. Making these changes will cause a lot of work for us since we will need to copy a lot of runs from one leaderboard to another. Please give us feedback on your thoughts about these changes, we will NOT be making any of these changes if there is any significant objection from the community. We want to make sure that any decisions comply with what the community wishes to see, so please comment down below with your feedback.
