If all menu storage is banned in ASL, Distillery Storage would be banned. We store the confirmation screen, which is considered menu storage under our current definition.

My thoughts:

Any% should allow FS, since it allows everything and should allow everything (except jaunting).

Turn Any% no MMS into simply No Menu Storage. The route doesn't change, the rules become more succinct, and we don't have to worry about having this discussion a third time.

I'm less sure of my opinion on other categories. My instinct is a blanket ban on menu storage outside of Any% to keep rules consistent and, again, to put this discussion to rest for good. It would affect Distillery Storage in ASL, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. But I could be swayed on this.

Another new form of menu storage was recently found that could potentially have a large impact on a number of categories, and as such, it's time for a rule change discussion. This thread will determine the legality of this trick in various categories. Even if you have discussed this on Discord, please write your opinions here for a formal record. As we want to hear the thoughts of everyone in the community, please contribute regardless of your preferred categories or perceived level of experience.

WHAT IS FORGE STACKING?

Forge Stacking (FS), so named because its first use was to duplicate the Forge menu, is a type of menu storage distinct from Main Menu Storage (MMS). To perform it, press Esc in-game to open the pause menu, then click "Exit to Main Menu" and press Esc at the same time. This opens the confirmation screen at the same time as the pause menu closes, putting the game in a state where you can interact with the world while it is still paused. This allows the player to interact with an object (including a core) any number of times. In the case of cores, the player will add a core to the inventory for every interact input without it despawning until the player unpauses, which allows the player to finish the game as early as the first visit to the Bastion from the Wharf District.

WHAT'S SO IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS?

The existence of Forge Stacking has the most ramifications for Any% No MMS. Since this type of storage is not considered MMS, it being allowed in this category would make it functionally identical to Any%, where the trick would presumably be allowed as a matter of course.

The issue is foggier in other categories. On one hand, the various restrictions of the other categories should be sufficient to keep from being broken by FS. The trick could also open up interesting routing options for current and developing categories by duplicating a core a certain number of times or having precise experience routing by duping a different object. On the other hand, the trick could potentially be more trouble than it is worth, as it could add cause confusion and a perceived double standard for allowing one type of menu storage and not another (MMS is banned in most categories). In addition, if future distinct types of menu storage are found when there is no blanket ban on menu storage, this discussion may need to happen again (the way it's happening again right now).

DISCUSSION SO FAR

This is not an exhaustive list of options, and we are open to further ideas. However, these are the ideas that have been put forth so far:

Any%: The community so far has seen no issue with allowing FS in Any%, as it is meant to be the category that involves completing the game with no restrictions.

Any% No MMS: Some runners suggested merging Any% No MMS with the pure Any% category. This would merge the leaderboards and leave one category with no restrictions to reflect the changes in Any% over the past couple years. Alternatively, another suggestion is to ban FS in Any% No MMS. This was suggested as taking the form of either a "No MMS/FS" category or a blanket "No Menu Storage" category. This would keep intact a category that is considered by some to be the most beginner friendly and welcoming. A further suggestion along this path is to drop the Any% moniker from this category, to simply "No MMS/FS" or "No MS," respectively, to reflect how distinct the route now is from pure Any%.

Other Categories: As described above, the main issue here is whether FS should be allowed in the categories where it would not destroy the route. Some runners suggested that it be allowed by default with potential for later bans, while others expressed concerns about clarity in the rules and potential future types of menu storage. There was one suggestion to take the issue on a case-by-case basis, so discussion here can be big picture or category-specific.

Ban pre-run menu storage. Maybe we can make a meme category for it, but it should be banned in any other category.

I'm all for requiring videos. If we were going to allow text-only submissions, I would prefer they be past a specific time threshold: say, 20:00 for Any% and 1:10:00 for ASL or something like that. But I'd prefer to just continue requiring videos and deal with individual issues should they arise.

I agree with allowing Any% to use MMS and creating Any% NMMS as the default beginner's category. Without it, we have no short, easy to learn category. That said, I also support All Weapons becoming a main category. This is partially just because I like the category, but also because every category so far is either 15 minutes or 45 minutes. That isn't inherently problematic, but I do like the idea of an intermediate category being added between the two in terms of time estimate.

In ASL, MMS should absolutely be banned. I'm not certain about confirmation skip. It isn't game breaking enough to have a No Major Glitches kind of opinion towards it, but abusing it further could require us to have the whole discussion over and over again. If doing blind Tazal is enough to ban the glitch and wipe the leaderboards anyway (and I do believe that would be a matter of when, not if), then I advocate for either just banning it and getting the wipe done and over with, or (preferably) putting a limit on how many storages can be done. I'd like to see where we can take this glitch, but it's not worth allowing the stupider version of it considering we know it's there, we know it's possible, and we know it will throw the leaderboard for a loop when it's done successfully.