Ohio, USA“ I guess my logic with splitting was that if each of the four consoles are split (since they ARE all different hardware after all) then there theoretically shouldn't be an issue to have RTA for them then, because the whole "they load differently" thing goes out the window.”
The problem with this is that even two Xbox Ones may potentially load differently from each other, so RTA even when comparing the same platform isn’t going to be accurate.
Maybe you can volunteer to be a run verifier? Message a mod and see if they want/need the additional assistance.
I can't vouch for what happened in this particular instance since I'm not a moderator for this game, but I can speculate. For one thing, there is a time limit on getting the runs verified. Speedrun.com moderation rules typically gives a 21 day time limit for moderators to verify pending runs. My run that I submitted a couple day ago hasn't been verified yet, so I'm sure there's still quite a bit to sort through on their end.
It's quite possible that moderators for this game also happen to moderate other games. Different games have different requirements for submissions. Some games don't require in-game audio, some games require in-game audio only for times under a certain threshold, etc. Maybe the moderator that verified that run isn't completely familiar with all the rules for this particular game yet and missed the part where runs require in-game audio. I certainly wouldn't hold it against them for what was probably an honest mistake. After all, the boards just came up a few days ago and there are different rulesets for the many different categories (not to mention different rulesets between console/PC) so it's a lot to keep track of.
EDIT: Also, at quick glance there are already over 40 verified runs on the boards. If only one run slipped through the cracks (and was corrected within 30 minutes of being pointed out that there was an error in it) then I'd say that's pretty good.
Mods are volunteers and are not infallible, so someone probably just made a mistake. I'm sure the verification queue is huge right now since the boards just opened, so they're probably rushing through to try to get caught up on all the submitted runs as quickly as they can. Mistakes happen. Looks like they fixed it pretty quickly after it was pointed out, though!
There are a few minor changes. On Beppi, the lingering hitbox after Beppi crashes into the wall for the 1st to 2nd phase transition is no longer there, so it’s slightly less damage you can do there.
Same for Wally after you kill the mini bird right before final phase. Usually you can continue to shoot it for a second or so before the hitbox disappears, but it’s fixed now so the hitbox is gone.
This was also fixed for Djimmi at the end of the normal puppet phase. The hitbox now disappears immediately when you do enough damage to trigger final phase.
On Phantom Express during the second phase there’s about 1 extra second in between cycles when the skeleton goes back into the train and comes up in a different spot.
There are probably a few other minor changes I’m forgetting but that’s what I remember off the top of my head.
Nobody was saying anything about invalidating runs on the old patch. They stated that runs on the old patch were here to stay. The entire issue is whether or not there will be categories for players that play on a non-modified version of the game (aka, the newest patch).
And if the fastest possible time was the default, then Any% or All Bosses Simple would be the main category, not All Bosses Regular. It makes sense to choose what becomes the default category based on mass appeal, not fastest possible time. In some games those are one and the same, but in other games they are not.
The problem is forcing people to play a non-standard version of the game in order to be competitive in major categories. Newer players aren’t going to want to downgrade a play a buggy version of the game in order to speedrun it.
Also, this patch completely ruins the IL leaderboards for anyone on Xbox or anyone on PC that doesn’t want to go through the hassle of modifying their game. At the very least, IL leaderboards should have pre and post-patch categories. None of the IL records (aside from Run n Guns) are achievable by anyone playing with the latest version of the game.
As an Xbox player, I completely agree icy_. I’m completely demotivated from playing since I have no way of competing on an even playing field with everyone else. It seems odd for the most competitive categories of the leaderboards to essentially require tampering with your game to play a version that’s no longer available. I understand runs post-patch are also accepted, but we all know that they stand no chance to compete with pre-patch submissions.
On top of that, I have no motivation to play a full game run either since Xbox users get screwed there too since we don’t have access to an auto splitter. So even if we have a world record performance, it’ll get ranked below inferior submissions simply because we have to submit by RTA time.
Xbox players are in the minority here, so I don’t expect anything will be changed to accommodate us though. This patch and how it’s being handled here really kills the game for me though.
As for why they wiped pre-patch submissions from the leaderboard: I understand that. They made a LOT of changes to the game, both announced and unannounced that would affect existing runs. Charge damage was nerfed, some bosses have slightly different patterns including parryable objects in sections that previously had none, the domino boss in king dice’s floor scrolls slightly faster now, Cagney’s face attack comes out quicker, etc. Wiping it provides an even playing field for new runs to compete with old ones, so it makes sense. I’m just surprised they only did it for Glitchless runs.
Guess I’m going Glitchless only from now on lol.
Is post-patch going to be a separate category from pre-patch? As far as I know, Xbox users cannot revert to the old patch, so if we have to compete with people playing pre-patch we won’t stand a chance.
The video looks good, Glackum! It’s not possible to do on flying levels, but it’s possible on all other boss fights and run n guns.
Fair enough. Sorry for the slight derail. I wasn’t aware of the discussion of the King Dice bosses beforehand (I didn’t get the game til a couple weeks after it came out and missed all the early discussion) but if that’s what the community decided then that’s fair.
Also, on the subject of attracting new runners to the game: I would think this glitch would actually bring more new runners to the game than it would deter, so I disagree with the notion that it should be banned because some people “might” not want to speedrun the game in the future.
As things stood before this glitch, it was pretty clear that TMR, K_Prime, and Cosmic were pretty far ahead of everyone else in terms of full game runs. A newer player might watch one of their runs and say “well, I’ll never be that good, so I won’t even bother”. Now with the introduction of the menu glitch, a newer player might see how easy it is to execute and how much time could be saved and figure they’ll give it a shot because ANYONE has a shot at a high ranking time right now. It’ll be awhile until you have fully optimized runs with the menu glitch. The top of the leaderboard will likely involve a mix of some people that get the menu glitch on most bosses with not-the-greatest execution on the boss fights themselves, others that have really good boss fights but may have missed the menu glitch a few times, and others that have nearly perfect boss fights and minimal menu glitch usage all with similar times. More glitches and new discoveries make speedrunning more competitive, not less.
“I think GUITARMACIST points out a lot of issues to consider as well, given how much the glitch is going to rely on odd controller setups or force keyboard use”
Odd controller setups are not mandatory for the glitch, and keyboard use is not forced. Odd controller setups may make the glitch easier for some people to execute, but it’s by no means a requirement. Same with WSE. Remapping weapon swap to a different button makes it easier to do for most people, but it’s not required.
It just seems nitpicky to have categories where only “some” glitches are allowed when a glitchless category already exists.
Glitchless = no glitches allowed All other categories = glitches allowed
This is how it is right now, and that makes sense to me and likely makes sense to any outsider that may be considering speedrunning Cuphead in the future. What you guys are proposing is:
Glitchless = no glitches allowed Any% = all glitches allowed All Bosses = some arbitrary amount of glitches are permitted, but not all of them.
You’re worried about this glitch pushing less people to run this game, correct? Consider how it’ll look when a person that may want to run Cuphead comes here, realizes there are a dozen different categories, and has to spend time reading rules on each category to figure out exactly which glitches are allowed in each category.
When a “Glitchless” category exists for a game, it’s intuitive to assume that any non-Glitchless category allows any and all glitches. If I wasn’t already into speedrunning Cuphead, I would be really turned off of the game if I found out that there were different sets of glitches permitted in each category.
On another note: can we just rename Any% to “Bad Ending” and All Bosses to “Good Ending”? All Bosses isn’t really all bosses since you skip 6 of the King Dice bosses, and All Bosses is still a form of Any%.
It’s worth mentioning that the menu glitch only lowers the background music volume. It does NOT completely mute it (clarifying this point for people out there that might misinterpret what MCAaronIce said earlier). The menu also takes up roughly 16% of the screen, so it does not obscure a considerably large portion of the screen like people seem to think.
RE: “GDQ would not approve this”: This is an irrelevant point to make when deciding whether to allow a glitch in speedruns. I also completely disagree. This glitch is comparable to the Undertale punch card skip (which WAS approved and run at GDQ). The punch card skip involved abusing an overlay in order to skip cutscenes (sound familiar?). It was also used to skip major boss battles and entire sections of the game. The menu skip glitch is far less gamebreaking since you’re only skipping the results screen and contract animation rather than skipping significant parts of the game.
One can argue that it makes the game more interesting to watch since there’s less pointless downtime in between boss battles, and there will be a lot of variation in seeing when a runner decides to activate the glitch during a fight.
EDIT: If you’re really concerned about viewers missing out on some of the wonderful art and music that this game has to offer, then you might as well ban all categories except 100% Glitchless. The All Bosses category completely skips 5 entire levels worth of music/art work (6 if you count the tutorial), WSE shortens the boss fights to the point where viewers are only hearing ~30 seconds out of a 3+ minute musical composition, and phase skip glitches rob the viewer of some beautiful final phase artwork (Hilda, Beppi, Djimmi, Grim, Dr. Kahl’s Robot, Rumor) not to mention the 6 King Dice minibosses that would not be seen at all in a non-100% run.
It seems silly to make this into a separate category just because it’s not visually appealing. Speedruns for me have always been about optimization. This glitch helps optimize the game, therefore it should be allowed in all categories besides glitchless IMO.
If you’re going to make separate categories for a specific glitch, then you’ll end up with a LOT of different categories. And I don’t want to see a leaderboard cluttered with so many different categories; that would make each individual category less competitive and ruin the speedrunning community for this game as a whole.
If you’re worried about the game turning viewers off of watching this, then make Glitchless the main category of the game and allow this glitch in all other categories.
Thank you guys for all the work you do! With all the stuff that needs verifying that's got to be eating up a LOT of your free time, so I (and I'm sure others) appreciate it!
@Nrrillinthas, no worries. I wasn't even concerned about the King Dice submissions as someone in Discord already mentioned to me that it'll break into different categories sometime in the future, and I realize that wouldn't happen instantly.
My comment was mainly referring to a Dr. Kahl's Robot Expert S Rank score I saw that was submitted on 10/28 and verified same day, but my score for the same exact category (both Xbox One platform too) was submitted on 10/26 and was left unverified for 4 days. Someone just verified it shortly after my earlier post, so I figure it slipped through the cracks and someone finally noticed it.
Same. I've been waiting 4+ days on several IL run verifications. I understand there's a backlog, but I've noticed people submit IL scores for the same category after mine and have them verified same day, so they seem to be picking and choosing which ones to verify instead of going in order of submission date.
