When it was originally created, the Gauntlet category was meant to be as close to replicating the racing ruleset as possible, while still being fun to run. This worked for most racers who were interested in the category, however some base game speedrunners as well as newcomers don't seem to agree with the mod requirement.

The proposed solution is to allow Vanilla E8 Lunarless runs on the Gauntlet board, with the caveat that while still timed with IGT, they cannot enter the bazaar, else the run will be timed with real time.

The main discrepancy then between modded and vanilla runs at the top level becomes the presence of Fogbound Lagoon, as other modded features like +5s don't matter for top runs, though they do make the category more accessible for less consistent players.

Another idea that was brought up to make the Gauntlet run more in line with other categories is to allow savefile manipulation as well as toggling off the DLC, allowing the removal of some bad items to make runs more consistent. If this rule is accepted the mod will need to be updated to accomodate for it, if not, vanilla runs will need to verify a complete savefile after every run.

Please discuss in this thread. I am aware discord is easier for quick communication but talking about it here makes it much easier to look back on and reference again. Especially with the community being split across the racing and speedrunning discord servers, having all discussion take place in one spot makes my life as a moderator much easier.

I’m all for having vanilla runs added to the leaderboard because the gameplay itself is the same. In terms of vanilla runs though, I’d prefer that in for new runner to not have to deal with save files it’d remain a fully unlocked, which’ll make it harder to start out unmodded (my opinion on this can be changed though)

As controversial as modded may be for a speedrun category, having modded be an entryway for new runners can be helpful because it removes a lot of the setup steps, so I believe that both should both be valid.

side-note

Fogbound should not be required modded, it doesn’t contribute to the speedrun aspect and a lot of new and old players are just slightly inconvenienced by it. Considering a solid amount of runs already exist with it enabled, and some people enjoy the stage, it should totally be an option, but not a requirement for a run to be valid.

I am on the side of BOTH Vanilla and Modded existing on the same leaderboards. In other games you can play on multiple consoles and in multiple languages where some setups are just faster than others, so even if vanilla is slower if you want to play vanilla you should be able to.

In a WR/PB typically you will not do pillars, you will not +5 and you most likely won't go to the bazaar, based on the runs that are currently posted i think most should agree, i have watched one of Wig's vanilla commando runs and if i didn't know before hand that it was vanilla i wouldn't have noticed a difference.

Fogbound should be optional in my opinion, i don't think fogbound is an advantage or disadvantage, it can be good and it can be pretty bad, being optional seems completely fair to me.

With streamers bringing a lot of attention to the Gauntlet category being able to access e8 without having to grind it all out is great for new players.

I agree that the mod is good for people getting into the run but that is pretty much it. Like I've mentioned in another thread and on the discord, the solo runs are just eclipse runs with lunars banned. None of the things that make gauntlet what it is really apply in solo runs, and this leads me onto savefile editing.

Forcing a save file makes sense for races since it unifies the drops for players across a race, but i don't see why a save should be forced for solo runs. Players who want to should be allowed to edit save files to optimise item drops, or turn DLC off. I've already seen cases of people complaining about vase rng and suggestions such as seed previewing and guaranteed vase (i think)

Regardless of what save file you have, as times improve the rng requirement will still be huge. Take the No Artifacts category for example which allows optimised save files but still requires a large amount of luck to even get a decent run started. All we are doing by forcing 100% unlocks is postponing the inevitable.

In response to the comment about new runners having to deal with save files, I'd rather new runners didn't have to deal with save files OR the mod because of the 100% save file requirement.

I'm fine with the category allowing mods but please can we not gatekeep what is essentially lunarless E8 with silly mod requirements and rules

I'd be fine with vanilla lunarless being accepted, i don't mind too much if fogbound is allowed/ disallowed since it was mainly in the racing events to promote modded maps.

When it comes to save files, i think my favorite part of the gauntlet category is that it's close to a normal run, in that you actually have to loot because lunars/ artifacts aren't present. Removing a bunch of items from the pool will make the category way more reliant on altering savefiles for better items, which i think is boring and the speedrun becomes less about speedrunning the game how it is.

So I'm for vanilla lunarless, don't mind what happens with fogbound, and savefile/ patch/ dlc manipulation takes away the full game feel of the category which we usually never see otherwise in most other categories

Can we consider that not everyone has the DLC? The mod even auto turns off the DLC if it detects you don't own it so what are people without DLC supposed to do in that scenario?

The category would not become more reliant on savefiles for better items, it would become more consistent when using optimised save files. You can still get the same item drops with a 100% unlock file, it will likely just take longer. Allowing save editing would change vase from 1/25 to 1/16 chance for example. I don't think anyone is going to mind that the run doesn't feel 'normal' because they didn't get a triple squid polyp from a double mountain shrine. If people want to play with 100% unlocks be my guest, but why force it on everyone just because some people have opinions about what is considered 'normal' gameplay.

I'm cool with vanilla lunarless bazarless being accepted. I think it will be a relatively small part of the player base but will end up being more accessible overall. Everyone else seems to have said what I would say so I'll leave it at that.

As far as fogbound goes I'm strongly in support of it being optional. I have personal bias of just not liking the stage but in principal it's the only part of the run that feels like a massive change to vanilla eclipse 8. As Chupo said, +5 and Pillars almost never come into play during wr attempt speedruns, so it's essentially a vanilla game with quick resets when playing the mod. Fogbound is a massive step away from this. I don't think the stage provides any huge advantages and is ok if people want to use it but forcing people to learn a new stage to speedrun makes no sense imo.

Please add to this Pros and Cons list of enabling DLC and Profile Customization (which i see as joined):

PROS

• People who don't own DLC can play
• New chance for strategizing (selecting unlocks to a build you want to go for)
• Doesn't affect gameplay majorly
• Makes it more in line with other speedruns as well as feel more "speedrun"-esque
• Makes non modded runs a lot easier to verify and allowed

CONS

• More difficult to setup for new players (readonly, profile duplicates)
• Can remove fun content from the game
• Lowers difficulty of a Challenge run
• Progresses "boring" meta strategies of only taking tp drops
• Can give new player a unfair advantage over runs from current runners

Why cant there be a category which is unique and different? Ever since this category was established basically all of the discussions surrounding it have been about turning it into more of one of the tons of monotonous categories this game already has, with savefile editing and vanilla runs. I also think tailoring this towards beginners and new people doesnt make sense as it is literally on the hardest difficulty, this category wont be successfully run by beginners anyway.

Why would you not to tailor the category towards people new to Speedrunning... it doesn't matter if people new to Speedrunning can't get WR, Speedrunning isn't solely about getting a WR, there's so many people that will have considered trying from watching streamers, maybe wanting to beat them, or beat a friend or just see how high they can get...

Kei you've also said yourself that the record doesn't actually require that much skill and from the leaderboard alone you can see plenty of people have improved a whole lot, and i guarantee most are only going for PBs not WRs

Why would you want less competition, even if it isn't competition for WR? It makes 0 difference to the people at the top of the leaderboard anyway

What's the reason for moving away from modded? The setup is pretty easy and I don't see how that would keep people from playing the category. I suppose I don't see any reason to not allow vanilla (I don't even use the gameplay features of the gauntlet mod, just quick reset and verify), though being modded does make the category feel unique and I'd be worried over time it would shift away from that. I.e. if a major change were desired regarding the existing mods or adding a new one, if vanilla is allowed that may not be possible.

I'm not familiar with save file editing as someone who has only run this category. I'd be reluctant to make any changes which move the category further away from the feeling of playing the game normally. I enjoy this specifically because it's like I'm having a regular playthrough, except I'm trying to move quickly instead of full looting. It's also worth considering that the gauntlet category is intended to mirror the loadout races, so moving away from that seems questionable. The category would be less fun for me if the item pool were diluted, even in the name of consistency.

Another point for the above is that currently this category is about running the game at its most difficult - you have to deal with the three squid polyp mountain shrine, it's on E8, no artifacts to help out, etc. This is a major difference from the other categories which seem to make controllable aspects of the game as easy as possible to enable faster times - Drizzle, save file modification to get as good of items as you can, etc. In general I also don't find arguments of making this category more in line with others compelling. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on other categories btw as I'm not very familiar with them :)

Is toggling the DLC off not allowed? I wasn't even aware. Seems like an accessibility issue to allow toggling that considering not everyone may have the DLC. You're probably worse off without using the DLC anyway, right? Void items are powerful. I guess it leaves more credits for other items ahem equipment barrels with vases.

If we want to run the game at its most difficult then why are we not forcing bands and other powerful items to be locked in the save file that people are forced to use?

If you feel it is more fun for you to have a higher chance of useless item drops then by all means run with all items unlocked, but my point still stands of why bother forcing a rule like that on others that find it less enjoyable. Its not as if save file editing eliminates all bad items from the pool, it just allows for a little more consistency.

I understand your point. In retrospect my thinking wasn't "literally the most difficult I can make the game" (that would be a no items run lol), it was more about if I play the game normally to completion this is the final state. That makes having all items in the category feel more natural gameplay-wise to me, though one can intentionally only unlock whatever items are deemed good and that is still a valid game state. I still believe having all unlocks is more in line with the spirit of the category, however. I feel playing to E8 goes hand in hand with fully completing the game and I enjoy that the category reflects this. I also think since every other category allows save editing, having one which disallows it is nice.

Regarding forcing the rule on others, you effectively force save editing on others if you allow it. I'll admit you can technically run without it if it's allowed, but if you want to actually compete for high spots then you must use save editing. Either way results in this, as you said not allowing save editing imposes that on others in a more plain way. I personally enjoy that the gauntlet category feels more like normal gameplay than the other categories, but not everyone will feel the same or have the same reasons as me of course.

It is, in my opinion, also contradicting to say you want this to be beginner friendly and at the same time allow for savefileediting, as that is a lot harder to do than playing modded, on a profile that literally takes like 5 clicks to import and no further setup. This goes hand in hand with what meteor points out about this weird "You dont need to do it if you dont want to" point.

I never said I want the category to be beginner friendly, I said that I think the only benefit of the mod is that it helps people (me included) get into to the run. It only takes 1 click to boot the game normally and with any saves allowed the average player will not have to worry about mods or unlocking all items/mid stage logs before they can start running.

The point made by lmeteor about effectively forcing editing on other players by allowing it doesn't really hold any weight when the only reason for wanting a 100% file so far seems to be because of wanting have the game to feel 'normal', which is completely subjective.

If top runners are worried about having worse rng than other runners then perhaps they should consider how seriously they take the run? If you are already spending hundreds of hours running the category then taking some time craft/download an optimal profile is a drop in the ocean.

Personally I find the most interesting part of running this game is the search for a near perfect seed, so anything that can be done to slightly improve that chance within the vanilla limits of the game is fair. I think save editing would benefit players who stream the game aswell, reducing the frequency of anti-climactic runs where you have a great build but fail to find a vase on stage 5.

I personally would love to see vanilla runs to be allowed in the gauntlet mode. The mod is basically a glorified eclipse 8 no lunars modpack with an extra map and QoL features. I don't like the idea that a category allows you and requires you to use modded content. Some people in this thread have stated that the category is meant to feel like a normal playthrough, yet there is a modpack that is required to be installed that reduces the number of pillars, lets you continue playing after death and even has a 4th stage 3. Yes, those modifications are not ideal for a speedrun, yet if they are not ideal for a speedrun why are we currently forced to use them under the current rules.

As for save file editing, I feel like that it is weird that it is allowed in all categories but this one and naturally 100%. I feel like it should be allowed in this category because editing your savefile does not majorly change gameplay and still allows it to feel "normal". Also speedruns always take effort to set up and learn and if someone can not put the time into learning to change their save file through a guide or tool like https://riskofrain2-save-editor.web.app then they will most likely not be competitive enough to even notice the effects of the change. If this still posses too much difficulty for new runners and the goal is to have this speedrun be hassle free for new runners to get the optimal setup, why not include a mod that lets them do it easily in game such as RealerCheatUnlocks. This speedrun already has modded content and including an unlock editor in the modpack would allow new players to edit their save hassle free.

Not sure how much my opinion matters here since I don't have any times submitted and I'm not a good player, but to me this category is fun because it's different from the others in that it makes the game the hardest it could be played while still feeling like like a normal playthrough.

Save file editing takes that aspect of this category away, and makes it more similar to the other several categories this game already has, which I don't find appealing. There are so many categories for this game, and most of them boil down to subverting RNG by buying OP items or making the game easier by running on lower difficulties.

What if we could have a category where the game is actually played at the hardest it could be, while still feeling like a normal run, without abusing lunar items? To me this is that category.

RNG is what makes this game fun for many people, and it's a shame that we can't have a single category without that aspect being "subverted". People who like having incredibly consistent runs have plenty of other categories to choose from.

For these reasons I would be against Fogbound being required, and I'm in favor of allowing vanilla solo runs.

It's worth remembering that the other categories avoid RNG by enabling artifact of command, not by save editing. The no artifacts category is the most similar to gauntlet with the differences being that it is run on drizzle and allows lunars. That category also allows save editing, but by no means does it subvert the RNG and I believe the chance of getting a perfect bazaar is still around 1/6000+ even when locking useless lunars from the item pool.

An example of an edited save for Gauntlet would look like this:

white items from 30 to 25/24

green items from 31 to 24

red items 28 to 21

equipment from 25 to 16

I don't think this is a particularly massive change, the biggest being the equipment pool. Most characters don't get to use the full equipment pool anyway because they have to pick vase when they see it.

This run is already pretty reliant on getting void items for most characters (and more recently the droneman/empathy cores combo). Is that really what players want it to be? Void chests are so good to see in a run because they have a small item pool, having a 2/5 chance of getting one of the best items in the game when a opening an uncommon rarity void chest. So if you really think about it, turning off DLC would result in harder gameplay on average.

There are still plenty of items you don't want to see in the pool even when using an optimised save so I don't understand what the issue with save editing is. Having a slightly better chance of not needing to find void/red/boss items for a decent run is a good thing in my opinion.

Just wanted to add my input that I'm down with save editing. I think it will increase the skill aspect of the run. What makes these runs difficult isn't having to play 20 runs with bad rng, it's playing eclipse 8. If we can lessen the severity of bad rn while maintaining the difficulty and diversity of runs I'm all for that.

I understand why they want save editing but I’m on the boat of it kills the spirit of the game and category. If you can edit your saves then someone else with a different save who plays your seed will get an entirely different run when the original point of the gauntlet was full parity on any seed even at random. This also ruins every previous run and record set as they are practically power crept by outside of game and non skill optimization.

As these runs are also meant to be played at the base games hardest difficulty lowering the rng in a rogue-like who’s only gameplay loop is rng feels against the spirit of the game to me as it makes every run significantly easier if the “bad” items are gone entirely and you have a higher chance of getting optimal damage so there is less punishment for things like greed and unoptimized looting in gameplay.