Can someone explain the reasoning with the new mods being added and how we came to the decision of Carter and Akiteru? Seems strange that Akiteru who doesn't run genesis at all is currently is a mod here? Maybe he could be added to SNES as a second mod there as it still only has 1 mod. Firstly it should have been brought up before any final decisions were made. Secondary I would like it to be someone who is currently running and involved with streams, which there are a lot of currently. Are we able to get a list of the candidates and get a group discussion going?

"The users moderating a game should represent the consensus by the players of the game for who should be moderating." I don't recall a discussion or vote taking place.

" Moderators should typically speedrun the game, or at a minimum be heavily involved with the community." Akiteru doesn't even have a run on the Genesis board.

I'm honestly not sure of the reason behind the decisions. I was contacted but not really given a reason. I was shown a list of users that would be recommended and asked if I would like to add to that list. I did add to that list and heard nothing else other than that all the candidates would be contacted. I'm not sure if I was shown the full list of candidates because one of the users selected wasn't on that list.

But as I was told, "Welcome to the TLK community".

First of all, I'd like to point out that I mean no offense to the new moderators by making this post. In fact, Carter44 and Akiteru seem to be reputable runners. Also, I would like to thank you both for accepting the task of moderating our leaderboard. However I'd like to echo the aforementioned concerns made before me, which have been posted by three very active members of the community.

Changes to the leaderboard should always be made with input from the community. The leaderboard represents the community after all. The very first sentence of this site's own "Moderation Rules" page even states "Leaderboards should be viewed as owned by the community and curated by the moderators." This same sentence is also present on the "Game Request" page for people requesting new leaderboards. How does the community own a leaderboard if an outside source comes in and designates new moderators without asking any of the runners on the board? The same "Moderation Rules" page even states "The users moderating a game should represent the consensus of the players of the game." How are the new moderators representing the consensus of the players if multiple active members are claiming that they were never consulted on the matter?

Furthermore, there is the issue of Akiteru not being an active runner in this community. I know that he used to have a run on here, but it was removed at some point and was from several years ago. I only bring this up because, again, this site's own "Moderation Rules" page states "Moderators should typically speedrun the game, or at a minimum be heavily involved with the community." In his defense, he actually is active on the Lion King Discord server, but it's generally as discussion revolving the SNES game.

I understand that it's not easy to be a moderator sometimes, because people do have lives outside of speed running, but this would not have taken much effort to post a new topic in this very forum and just ping the community members. I'm not sure who made this executive decision (btw it obviously wasn't Insomnimatic since he doesn't even have Super Mod privileges to assign new Mods), but it would have been nice, and appropriate, to involve the people that make this game a speed run.

I hesitate to jump into this - because really I don’t want to have to go back and forth. However, I think this one is important.

I want to begin by saying I was in fact contacted by Alfredo about being added to a list of candidates for moderator. I did accept. I also want to say I have offered many times in the past to the current moderators that I would happily help them out if they ever needed it.

My issue isn’t that I wasn’t chosen, but it was the decision made. I have nothing against Carter or Akiteru. At all. I have never had a problem with them in the past. However, a lot of the time, the moderators are representative of the community. Someone like Akiteru, for example, is NOT representative of our side of the community. The Genesis players. He is easily a representative of the SNES portion of it. Like others mentioned, his run is now even removed from this board.

I’m a little bit confused as there is so many more options that are actually involved around the community. I’m extremely curious to know who the candidates were. And the fact that the current moderators had little to no say in who was picked is really off. Alfredo did say he would post results, but that didn’t happen. He silently did it, for some reason. I was hoping he actually would post it so the community can discuss this.

This is all so random. I have seen no issues recently. After my digging around earlier today, my conclusion came that it’s from drama that happened months ago - that has no effect on what has been happening within the last few months, it seems like a giant bias/grudge - but this still happened anyway.

Looking at the past, there is a serious issue here with going behind the communities back and making decisions without discussion.

sup long time no see

i went to a src full mod personally because:

• a runner let me know insomnimatic just got a full time job and told him he has one day a week to verify runs
• said runner was pbing 3x before his runs got verified
• another runner let me know insomnimatic was verifying all runs on stream without runners' consent. i quote: "publicly verifying runs without consent is not something any credible moderator should do at all. it may not have been with ill intent but it can easily be misinterpreted and the chance to hurt someone with critic is quite high."
• 17+ runs were piling up a week
• having one mod in a game this active would be odd even if they had nothing but free time to devote to it
• myself and the full mod came to the conclusion that carter and akiteru would be the best fit for it. they have years of experience in sr, carter called out the one cheater months before anyone else did and it fell on deaf ears, akiteru has years of experience modding mmx. we feel that this mod team would make everyone most comfortable because they aren't involved enough in the community have any reason to act on existing biases. moderators (normally) aren't chosen because they want to mod, they're chosen when they're a good fit for the role, which these two are. modding anybody else would be a conflict of interest because there are existing relationships between most runners in this community. we concluded only akiteru and carter would possess the objectivity necessary to do the job properly while letting insomnimatic retain his position as mod. like imagine how pissed off you all would be if i was one of the new mods! surely you see where i'm coming from here. i know you'd absolutely love to see that shit 🤡

seriously though, i hope this helps. none of this has ever been to undermine anyone or make anyone feel bad. if that were the goal, things would be looking a lot different than they are.

i took this so seriously mostly because i was really bothered by insomnimatic's live run verification. the fact that he had one day a week to verify 17+ runs and was just rollin with it instead of wanting what's best for the community and modding someone competent to help him verify didn't really sit well with me either. i didn't feel that the community's sole board mod should be an individual who would choose to let the community wait unnecessary amounts of time while he sits on dozens of new runs rather than simply getting help, which i offered back in august but would never be taken up on due to bias.

if you don't see why it is imperative to have 2 fair and impartial board mods after this, after everything that's gone on in this community for the past year, then i really don't know what to tell you all

be well

First of all, I still stand by my point these things should always be a community discussion. Having one member of the community making these decisions with an ex-moderator of the game (who has never run this game) and a site mod (none of which are involved in Lion King) is biased and not indicative of what we as a whole want from our leaderboard. As far as determining the most adequate moderators, the community as a whole would be a much better judge than one sole member.

I will agree that if runs were becoming that backed up, than yes of course we needed more moderators. Even better, some people may have volunteered as verifiers (a role with no mod powers) to verify backlogs of runs. In fact, its generally a good rule of thumb to have at least three moderators.

However, this isn't about personal biases or the need to have people "see" why a certain view is imperative, this should be about the community. Always. About. The. Community. Even this site's moderation guidelines spell it out very clearly in several ways. Community. Not one or two people's opinions greater than everyone else's.

Ok, so if I write a scr mod directly I get involved in decisions? Cause that's what I'm taking from that honestly. The sarcasm is intended, because it makes me a bid mad.

"having one mod in a game this active would be odd even if they had nothing but free time to devote to it"

• No one is question that as far as I see. Why would anyone? It's a fair point.

"myself and the full mod came to the conclusion that carter and akiteru would be the best fit for it." "we concluded" I would have loved to contribute something in the decision process. I think others would have liked too. There is no "class representative" or did I just miss that till now? I'm part of this community (an very active one) but not a part of the "we"? That's very interesting to hear and confusing.

"they aren't involved enough in the community have any reason to act on existing biases" I see the point in that, but isn't that a contradiction to the official statement in the rules that already has been quoted?: "Moderators should typically speedrun the game, or at a minimum be heavily involved with the community." Your point is: It's good, because they are not "enough" involved. Confusing again.

I'm for myself not really doubting the skills of Carter and Akiteru. I barely know them if at all. I'm just wondering: If they have such a strong case being the right ones for the job, why not officially suggesting them in a post like this, maybe hear some other (good) considerations and decide as a group? As a "we".

Luckily I know nothing about all these things that happend before. Many other active runners were not a part of this past too. So I can't follow some of these arguments and I don't care about that at all. It's a personal matter but is used as an argument that affects all. Sorry, I simply cannot let that count. That's also not really objective.

That said, the public verification process and the stacking runs to verify are reasonable arguments and concerns and I'm not questioning these concerns at all if anyone has them. It's just the solution that worries me. And now part of the justification.

“ - having one mod in a game this active would be odd even if they had nothing but free time to devote to it”

If this is one of the cases, then Alfredo should not be the only one moderating SNES, either. Which he has been for a good while.

“modding anybody else would be a conflict of interest because there are existing relationships between most runners in this community.“

You can’t have friends who run the game as a moderator? Just because you’re friends with a runner, doesn’t mean you’re automatically going to have a bias and not treat their runs the same as everyone else’s. That’s just bad moderation. And there hasn’t been any of that. The cheating thing was revolving around confirming there was proper proof, not just defending a runner to defend a runner.

My point still stands however about going AROUND the community without one word to them. No discussion whatsoever.

So as one of the newer runners to this game, I feel it might be important to hear from the perspective of someone like me. I don't speak for anyone but myself here though. I absolutely am in agreement there needed to at least be a second mod. This game has been going through a resurgence lately with me and many others, and it was unexpected that there would be so many runs to verify like this. Putting all of that on one person who is working a full time job is unfair.

On the subject of who was chosen, I won't act like I am not slightly upset about this decision. I do not fault anyone involved in the decision and I am sure that both people chosen would be good for the job. My issue simply does stem from the fact that no one was contacted. Ever since getting here, I have been welcomed and shown love and support by everyone here. This community has been life changing for me and has pushed me through some dark times. Being left out of such a major decision gives me the feeling that my voice doesn't matter, and as someone who deals with every day prejudice, my voice is my greatest ally. The community, in my eyes, should always be involved in a decision that affects the community, no matter what.

On the other side, I do agree that having at least one mod that is impartial is a good thing. There is no bias on incentive to do anything other than verify good runs. Anyone can dispute that, but being impartial is nothing but a positive, and I do see that as a gain for the community and mod team. At the same time. I do believe at least one of the people chosen should have been a legitimate LK Genesis runner, as they know the ins and outs of the game and they know best what to look for in a run, especially what might be suspect. I will just say I would have been okay with either Eighttt, Estacaco, Stormy, or Bronkel being made a mod, as they in my opinion know the game better than anyone not currently modded.

Lastly I must stress this because it is the most important thing. Whoever the person was who said Insomnimatics was verifying runs without consent needs to check things before calling foul. Every single runner that was waiting on those 17 verifications gladly showed up to that stream to not only enjoy watching each others amazing progress, but also get help and tips on how to improve further from a top 5 runner. This community has become such an amazing support network, pushing each other to grow and succeed, and I want to feel that I can go to anyone on that leaderboard that is still here and and seek help and guidance and vice versa. The leaderboard from 4 months ago compared to now is a completely different landscape, and it's because of the massive support and respect shown to everyone.

Whatever happened in the past came before me, so I can't say much about that, but what I can say is that no one should feel like they don't have the love and support that I have received here. If someone is hurting, we should be there for them. If someone has a gripe or legit problem, we should look into it and handle it. No one should feel like they don't have a voice here. I know I need to be better and we should all strive to be better. I want nothing more than for us to come together and prove what I keep saying to everyone. That the LK community is the best speedrun community without question.

I see the issues with verifying on stream on some level but not to the extent of it calling a moderator's credibility into question. At the very least, it would show a fair judgment on each individual's runs. As I stated above, I still somewhat see an issue with it.

I would love to have had the time to verify runs sooner than I have been able to but saying I allowed them to "pile up" is incorrect. I was still making an effort to get those runs verified not allowing them to just sit there and always did them in order from oldest to newest.

Yes, runs did get to 17 for a single week. The way you've worded this makes it seem like every week there were tens of runs to verify when this simply is not the case. I did not "sit on dozens of new runs", as you claim. I had to simply wait to verify them.

Technically, I am not the sole moderator.

I would have modded other users to help if I had the power to do so. I am not the Super Moderator and he is currently fairly hard to get ahold of. I did not think to go to the src mods directly so yes, I made a mistake by not thinking about that.

I really have no issues with more mods on the board, it will be a relief to know that there is help and I've been wanting to get more people on board but as mentioned above, I really had no way of adding them.

"Game moderators are generally provided 21 days to handle a run submission. If the game moderators have logged into the site recently, please do not ask site staff prior to this. It is not a requirement for moderators to verify all runs every time they visit the site, we understand people have lives."

That's also a thing why I think Insomnimatics really shouldn't be blamed on the "let piling up" subject as it is stated. Yes, short waiting time for verification is a nice thing but if you submit a run you get this "2-3 weeks" note every time. That as an addition.

I wasn't gonna jump in on this, but after reading everything, I suppose I will. It's gonna be long, sorry in advance...

I agree, I would have liked some sort of notification about the new mods. There have been a few different instances in this community now where things have happened behind the scenes with little to no discussion or clarification. If the LK community is as "close" as others are suggesting, a short forum or discord blurb saying "hey here's what's happening" would have been nice.

HOWEVER. I don't see why people are getting so upset about the choice made. Granted, the mods chosen seem a little left field to me too, but if they are good mods that are capable of accurately reviewing and verifying runs and maintaining boards, what does it matter? Other boards have multiple mods, and I'm guessing not all of them are the class favorite. If they know the game and know what to look for, I have no problem. Saying that just because they don't have a run on the board isn't quite fair. For example, I'm not completely incompetent of the SNES version, even though I barely play it. I've watched enough and played enough to know what's going on. (Please don't read that as me wanting to be a snes mod, I'm just saying give the guys some credit).

I will fully admit, I was one of the people not ok with verifying runs on stream. I saw Insom was streaming run verifications when I had a run to verify. I knew I wasn't going to be able to watch, and I didn't want people critiquing and judging my run without myself being able to be there and explain or justify my playing. I DMd Insom and asked him not to verify my run on stream, and he agreed, for which I was very grateful. If others like it, then good on you. It just seemed off to me.

I've been running the game for about two years now with little breaks here and there, which is probably the longest amount of anyone posting in this thread. Not flexing, just stating fact. The board and community have changed TREMENDOUSLY over that time. The growth in popularity and amount of runs over the past few months is crazy. It's unfair to ask any mod to run that basically by themselves, no matter how fast they're able to churn out verifications. I personally wouldn't want that burden. Plus with so many new runners, I think it's good to have some backup.

I don't post a lot in forums or the LK discord because I feel like I'm out of place. I've always kind of been a lone wolf with this game, playing at my own pace, helping out new runners when I can, connecting with a couple runners here and there, but basically just doing my own thing. I'm glad that people have found a close-knit group of friends and a game they enjoy to run in this community. I truly love the game and love to see when others do too. Speedrunning has definitely opened me up to a world of new friends as well. But don't let stuff like this cause some sort of division. I get why people are upset. There has been a bit of drama recently that has seemed to put some of us on edge. But just remember....it's a game. We're playing a video game. This is supposed to be fun. Make it fun guys. Support each other. Help each other. Don't criticize if you see things differently than someone else. Play. The. Game.

That's all. Sorry for the long rant.

Hello,

first and foremost I would like to apologize for neither involving the Lion King community more in the decision regarding the new moderators @Akiteru and @Carter44 as well as not announcing it properly. I am a more recent addition to the site team and it is extremely hectic at times. Working on several topics at once probably did no good as far as these missed opportunities go. For this I sincerely apologize.

I have read every post so far and would like to address some of the concerns and questions which have surfaced over this.

[quote=PlayingWithDick]Can someone explain the reasoning with the new mods being added and how we came to the decision of Carter and Akiteru?[/quote] This question essentially has several reasons. One being as was stated in the topic that moderators should have a run up on the leaderboard. This is true for @Carter44 but that is not the only reason. The other was the recommendation I received from @AlfredoSalza when asking for it. The other recommendation I received was @Stormy which I considered but ultimately looked more biased due to being more involved with @Insomnimatic. So as the "counterpart" with @EIGHT I wanted a neutral option, with good experience not only with the community but also leaderboard moderation and @Akiteru (even though there currently is no run on the leaderboard) fulfilled these requirements. If I had picked @EIGHT to moderate alongside @Insomnimatic (or worse if I had completely overthrown the current mod team) this situation would be far worse in my eyes. And I have a feeling everyone will agree with me that even though this was improperly handled it is at least logical to have come to these decisions.

With regards to how active the community is it may have been better to have a prolonged discussion on Discord or this forum. But this can still happen as far as I am concerned. Even with both moderators being added it doesn't mean you can dispute this decision or come up with a better solution. If you feel mistreated by the new moderators or there are changes you don't agree with I am more than willing to help.

[quote=Insomnimatic]I'm honestly not sure of the reason behind the decisions. I was contacted but not really given a reason.[/quote] As you read already this was due to the report against your moderation habits. In hindsight I left the matter of dealing with it to @AlfredoSalza essentially due to the series moderation and a chat between us may have cleared up some of these issues but ultimately the decision of adding more moderators would be the same. For active games it's more than good practice to have mutliple active mods. It means less stress for a single individual who may be working all week. Then there's experience and I don't necessarily mean this with regards to the game but in general. The decision to stream verification publically is an odd decision to me. After reading some posts regarding this in this topic I see that both help- and harmful sides were at some point a concern for runners. For you and a few runners it may have seemed like no big deal but for others it put them in a position they didn't want to be in. And not every person is brave enough like @cajink87 to essentially stand up to the single moderator of the game. To be clear this is not to say it was a decision you made with harmful intend but rather out of inexperience in my eyes which is just human. And due to the feedback from this topic if runners give their consent you can continue to verify and help with their runs. It is not a bad practice in itself just the side effect of doing something without having asked for permission first.

[quote=Bronkel]"myself and the full mod came to the conclusion that carter and akiteru would be the best fit for it." "we concluded" I would have loved to contribute something in the decision process. I think others would have liked too. There is no "class representative" or did I just miss that till now? I'm part of this community (an very active one) but not a part of the "we"? That's very interesting to hear and confusing.[/quote] To be clear here the decision was made by me. Not without feedback of course but the power so-to-speak lies with me in this case. And as stated initially I am sorry about not involving the community properly in this process. I have made this decision while considering what would be best for all parties involved without hearing one. I will take this as a lesson to improve upon and as written earlier I am open to any concerns or future reports regarding this decision.

[quote=Stormy]You can’t have friends who run the game as a moderator? Just because you’re friends with a runner, doesn’t mean you’re automatically going to have a bias and not treat their runs the same as everyone else’s. That’s just bad moderation. And there hasn’t been any of that.[/quote] This is a highly complex topic but I have to disagree here not only due to my own past experiences but also with communities beyond speedrunning in general. Friends will always have a certain bias towards each other until proof heavily outweighs this bias. I left out the part about cheating intentially by the way since that case is closed as far as I am concerned. Having friends who are moderators of a game you run or the other way around will raise at least some eyebrows. And if a pattern can be identified (such as high priority on stream/verification, giving their words more weight in discusions) it creates more problems. And these things may not even happen with a strict intention behind it. It is perfectly normal to agree with someone you trust more than a total stranger. Also due to my experiences you could argue I am indeed biased as well and you would be correct. But my bias is (at least I am attempting to go about this as objectively as I can) disconnected from this community. I did have conversations with @EIGHT but also with @AlfredoSalza and took their feedback and concerns into account over this topic. It may have helped to hear more community members and there is a chance this could've shifted my decision but the core problem of having more moderators for an active community likely would still be solved in a similar fashion.

[quote=Bronkel]"Game moderators are generally provided 21 days to handle a run submission. If the game moderators have logged into the site recently, please do not ask site staff prior to this. It is not a requirement for moderators to verify all runs every time they visit the site, we understand people have lives."

That's also a thing why I think Insomnimatics really shouldn't be blamed on the "let piling up" subject as it is stated. Yes, short waiting time for verification is a nice thing but if you submit a run you get this "2-3 weeks" note every time. That as an addition.[/quote] This is one of the primary reasons why I decided to keep Insomnimatics aside from the fact that I believe there was no harmful intent involved at any points in the decision with regard to this leaderboard. And as a matter of fact from my own personal experience I know how hard it is to ask for help. That's why I completely agree there should be no blame put on Insomnimatic regarding this.

For my closing words (not as in closing this topic but my post) I would again say I am sorry for this sudden change without further notice. This was not my intent in resolving the report. As for the new moderators @Akiteru and @Carter44 I hope both of you will do good by the community and primarily help @Insomnimatic not only with verification but also your experience with the game and speedrunning in general. To the Lion King community I would like to express that I hope that past issues can be put where they belong. In the past. We are all doing this as a hobby to enjoy and have fun. That should always be at the center. Noone should feel out of place. And groups should thrive to be welcoming to everyone and not stick to themselves. I think TLK is in a good place already but there's always some room for improvement.

Be excellent to each other and I hope you can at least understand me a little more and my reasoning in regards to the decision.

To reiterate a few points from my last post, I'm OK with the mod choices. I'm sure both are wonderful people more than qualified to handle things and I hope they are able to jump into this with much enthusiasm. I would just like to be a part of the decision of who becomes mod, as that truly should be a community decision, regardless of past and/or current transgressions. My only current issue right now is that despite these two mods being appointed, I am the only person to have a run verified recently, and my submission was much later than others.

I also personally did not see an issue with doing verification's live, as our runs are readily available to the public at all times. Anyone can watch all of my past runs and current runs and critique them regardless of someones stream. I am sorry that it did upset you and I wish we had known, as we definitely would have not gone through with it. For the majority of the current runners, we truly wanted the live feedback, as we're trying to grow and improve, and it's not easy with a some of the top runners being silent for us most times. I definitely do apologize though. Everyone with a submitted run should have been asked before had if they were OK with the stream.

For us newer runners though, there isn't this close-knit friend group though. We see everyone in this community as part of a family, and I do mean everyone. We communicate with each other because we are adults and we are having fun with this shared adventure. If anyone is feeling left out, divided, or has a real issue, speak up. Come to everyone, because that is what a community is for. If you purposely choose to divide though, leave whatever drama you have between you and whoever, because the rest of us don't want or need it. We just want you to feel part of this family and support us the way we support you, and that can only happen if people learn to forgive and move forward.

Thank you @ShadowDraft for taking the time to respond to everyone in depth. It is appreciated. I'm confident that the new moderators will fulfil their mod duties appropriately. However, all of us going forward should please remember to include everyone in an open discussion the next time changes are being considered, or even when someone feels that there is an issue that needs to be resolved. It is the appropriate thing. This is how we maintain the community's integrity, otherwise we are merely undermining ourselves.

PS: Everyone on this leaderboard is great, and we all enjoy the same awesome hobby and game. Let us try to work together so that we can continue enjoying it. :)

First, thank you @ShadowDraft for coming and clarifying.

I don’t believe anyone here had any personal problem against the two promoted. Me personally, I was mostly upset on how it was presented. And the way the situation was never talked about with the community/we didn’t know a problem existed - before going directly to a full mod. I felt it could’ve been a little less.. drama like?

Anyway, I wish Carter and Akiteru the very best in moderating this game. And as always, if any help is needed I’d be more than happy to help.

Again, thank you Shadow.