At the time of writing the rules for full game runs are as follows:

1. Team AI may be enabled.
2. Timing begins when the players come in control of their character on the first heist and loading times ARE counted between levels, so you are NOT allowed to skip any intros.

This is just a small rewrite of the rules that were in place. I don't agree on the second rule: the netcode for this game isn't great and loading times vastly differ for someone with a 5400KPM HDD vs a modern M.2 SSD. In fact during regular games it's possible to time out because the host is loading so slowly that it exceeds the 15 (or 20) second timeout and that's just for one level. Mulitply that by the 9 different levels this game has to offer and you get a difference of nearly 3 full minutes and this doesn't even include the time it takes to connect to one another.

I propose to use the in-game timer instead. For individual levels it's easy as there's just one screen at the end. For multi level runs it gets a bit more difficult, especially when the run is recorded by a client. Obviously it should be prefered to record as host (or even from multiple views) when playing with a team, but the rules should not be that strict. We can ignore differences in the end result caused by client desync because they usually average out to the same time as the host and tend to be higher than the time the host has if this is not the case. However, in some (rare) cases the end-game time is actually lower for clients, though this will also be the case if some external timing is used. The real problem lies when a client loses connection to the host or crashes mid game. I don't think this should invalidate a run, but it invalidates the use of the in-game timer and therefore is the only case where an external timer (e.g. the video timestamps) should be used. When connection is lost because the lobby was abandoned by the host, the in-game time should be used. The end result is the sum of all these in-game times (with corrections in case these cannot be used).

I already changed the rules for individual levels as just one of them had a difference in the claimed time and the in-game time (ignoring the runs with clearly incorrect time values). All that needs to be done for these is to specify what should considered a glitch. Or rather, what should be considered glitchless. I can only think of three glitches that can be considered acceptable and those are leaving the dozer next to the transformer alive on Counterfeit, interacting through objects such as walls -- because it's so common in regular plays -- and the manipulation of assaults. The latter does not include the use of god spots where you cannot get shot. All other things, even minor ones such as the duplication of mission critical equipment, should be considered a glitch if used to speed up the run.

Now for a more controversial subject: leaving the game to speed up the escape on a level. I think this should be banned from co-op runs because it can be faster to only have the host escape. However, someone hosting games for having the best connection does not mean they also have the capability to record. Sure you'll be punished if you play with someone that's desynced, but you also have an advantage if you have such a player and thus it somewhat cancels each other out. Moreover, this avoids issues where the escape cannot be seen on all recordings.

Last but not least is the acceptance of mods. I'm the author of what's probably the biggest and most used mod for PDTH: DAHM/DorHUD. I'm firmly against cheats or anything that changes the gameplay in any way, but I do believe in the power of mods to make certain aspects of the game more convenient. Therefore I think mods should be acceptable, AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT AFFECT THE RUN AT ALL. There's also the fact that you cannot see what others are using, so really there's no point in banning them for co-op runs. To give some examples, it should be allowed to use a restart feature (and the time after this is initiated should not count towards the total time), but it should not be allowed to use a mod to put yourself into custody or get downed immediately. You are not allowed to see when exactly assaults end or start (as this is clearly not possible without any mods), but automated stopwatches to keep track of events are allowed as long as you can manually do the same. When in-game times are used instead of actual times, skipping intros are not a problem as the in-game timer only starts after the intro is done as long as a black fading screen is shown so that you cannot use these one to two additional seconds where you can actually see what you're doing. For speedruns with gameplay changing mods (e.g. my 193+ mod) there's a dedicated section, but you cannot rank entries using the same mod. The use of improved bots, health regeneration and other things that can only be classified as cheats are banned.

I won't be making any changes to the rules for at least a week. Any feedback on these changes is appreciated and I won't make any changes the majority of this (small) community does not support.

I already got many requests to make a clearer distinction between glitchless and any% runs. Therefore I made those subcategories (with glitchless being the default) and made the difficulties a regular variable. Now all that's left is to have a very clear definition of the rules of what's considered a glitch and what not.

(¤) Counting the loading times - I have the same views, it shouldn't be, additional to limitations of hardware, as a game with limited player base most of the heist are intercontinental so there can be situations where the join times are nearly as 1 minute.

(¤) Record by either host or a client (host is preferred but shouldn't be mandatory) - agreed, the host may be having a stable connection, in a good geo location for all the clients & may have a sufficient PC to host the game but may be have problems like bandwidth problems to upload videos, computer not powerful enough to record while being the host.

"The real problem lies when a client loses connection to the host or crashes mid game. I don't think this should invalidate a run, but it invalidates the use of the in-game timer and therefore is the only case where an external timer (e.g. the video timestamps) should be used" - I also think so unless the client disconnect is the recorder him/herself.

"When connection is lost because the lobby was abandoned by the host, the in-game time should be used. The end result is the sum of all these in-game times (with corrections in case these cannot be used)." - I don't get this, why host abandon the lobby? it's highly unlikely 4 random people play 9 heist continuously to record & publish to "speedrun.com". Anyway the continuation of remaining heist fails.

(¤) Glitches I don't know which consider OK & which are even refuse to put under the glitched category. I'll list my idea after you comment on that.

(¤) "Now for a more controversial subject: leaving the game to speed up the escape on a level.........."

• The amount of people who were there in start should be in the game either playing or in custody & the recording should show the people reaching end, in the point of view of a player reached the escape or someone in custody.

Additionally purposely going to custody (especially the one who trigger escape or leading to escape)by using a command to get down, using GL on self, purposely not using meds after multiple downs to have a low health & have a very low bleed-out time should disqualify the run, people might use these especially in heists where escape trigger & escape locations are far apart.

I have witnessed some rare desync situations, if the people experienced stuff like below they shouldn't submit them in the first place.

1. I have seen a player just in the spawn point at start of the level like a scarecrow whole level but actually the person is playing without I seeing him & I'm getting messages the person is getting down, going to jail .. etc .
2. desync lead to a god mode like situation - totally invisible to cops.

After a disconnect, rejoin with different load-out should be a disqualify - people may say various things, but everyone should know / discuss what they need before start the heist.

(¤) Usage of mods - I have very similar view on using mods.

[quote=HarrytheHeister] I don't get this, why host abandon the lobby? it's highly unlikely 4 random people play 9 heist continuously to record & publish to "speedrun.com". Anyway the continuation of remaining heist fails. [/quote] Haha, I only included this because I saw it in one of the videos on this site where they restarted Diamond Heist when the codes failed. Obviously for full-game speedruns you'd start with the maps where RNG is the biggest influence if you want to get the best times.

[quote=HarrytheHeister]I don't know which consider OK & which are even refuse to put under the glitched category. I'll list my idea after you comment on that.[/quote] In my opinion every unintended glitch that saves you time that cannot be saved in another way. To list some:

• • The manipulation of assaults by kiting or splitting it up is a valid game strategy and only makes things easier and while you're technically exploiting the lack of any anticipation for cops, I wouldn't call this a glitch;
• • Duplication of equipment can obviously save a lot of time and there's no way this was intended so this should be banned from the glitchless category;
• • Destroying the glass on the cases on Diamond Heist by the use of the GL40 from the floor above is by no means intentional and this can save you a second or two and therefore should be banned from the glitchles category;
• • Any skips to the mission in unintended ways obviously don't belong in the glitchles category;
• • Hiding in bags or using so called "god spots" (e.g. like a popular one on Heat Street) make you near invincible and should be banned from the glitchless category;

And for some less obvious ones it may be debatable, such as not killing the bulldozer guarding the transformer box on Counterfeit. If your team is good enough you're not saving any time and in fact you already lost time at this point. For this reason alone it should be allowed in the glitchless category. And if that's not enough, the pacifist achievement in part relies on bulldozers not turning the power back on if you do not kill them. Another less obvious strategy is to use level ups as a way to restore health. Since this is game feature it should not be considered a glitch -- unless done on OVK or above, which should not be possible -- even though you can no longer do this when you've reached the maximum level.

[quote=HarrytheHeister]Additionally purposely going to custody (especially the one who trigger escape or leading to escape)by using a command to get down[/quote] This is technically cheating and therefore should be banned.

[quote=HarrytheHeister][...], using GL on self, purposely not using meds after multiple downs to have a low health & have a very low bleed-out time should disqualify the run, people might use these especially in heists where escape trigger & escape locations are far apart.[/quote] These on the other hand are just features in the game and I don't see the need for the whole team to escape because in most cases that's not the fastest way to finish a heist. If there are enough requests for this then maybe it could be added as a separate (sub?)category, but I don't know how to do this without making it too complicated yet.

[quote=HarrytheHeister]I have witnessed some rare desync situations, if the people experienced stuff like below they shouldn't submit them in the first place. [...][/quote] I don't think you can even escape with these conditions unless it's only from client to client, in which case it should not make the run any easier as there will be no way to interact with one another.

[quote=HarrytheHeister]After a disconnect, rejoin with different load-out should be a disqualify - people may say various things, but everyone should know / discuss what they need before start the heist.[/quote] I agree since disconnecting to gain an advantage should be banned regardless. This includes both leaving to speed up the game, leaving to give someone your mission equipment or leaving to come back with a different loadout.

"Timing begins when the players come in control of their character on the first heist and loading times ARE counted between levels, so you are NOT allowed to skip any intros"

For me this is definitely not accurate and should be changed, since as you said already loading times are always different depending on the connections and computers used. I agree that for multiple levels should be used the end screen stats. Of course, if a heist is failed the time should apply. Even if I would say that clients should not be able to submit their stats UNLESS it's the same as the host (verified with another video or screenshot if the host doesn't record). Using this method even if there is huge desynch between host and clients the timer should still be accurate.

Also, for multiple heists in a row, restarting should be banned and if the host crashes during a heist the run should be nullified, since there isn't any failed time to count. I don't see any problem if a client crashes and rejoins during mid-game, since the host's timer should be unchanged (as far as I know). About that, more in specific I think leaving and rejoining (to speed up the escape, for example) should not be banned, but put in the Any% category instead OR, like in PD2, in a complete different category called Shuffle which counts as a separate Any%.

[quote=Tromboncino]Even if I would say that clients should not be able to submit their stats UNLESS it's the same as the host (verified with another video or screenshot if the host doesn't record). Using this method even if there is huge desynch between host and clients the timer should still be accurate.[/quote] Keep in mind that the desync works two ways: both at the start and at the end. If it's only applicable at the end, you'll have spent more time on the heist. Only if there's a delay at the start and not at the end the end time will be less. But I agree, taking away the doubt by demanding evidence from the hosts perspective is a good idea, even if it's just the Steam account linked to verify the statistic. I just cannot enforce it on the runs already in the system and even for my own runs I don't think dussel made the screenshots. But most are very much beatable anyway. I actually added a little resync feature in my mod that corrects the time based on what the host had. So if the host has the same mod, it should always be correct. But as this a mod I cannot demand it. So it's both a good idea but not really enforceable because of the older runs.

[quote]Also, for multiple heists in a row, restarting should be banned and if the host crashes during a heist the run should be nullified, since there isn't any failed time to count.[/quote] Actually there is as long as the video has the whole thing on record. Sure, it's not from the end result, but it's from manually calculating it from the time stamps. I agree that it's much easier to just ban these runs, they're not going to be the best times anyway.

[quote]I don't see any problem if a client crashes and rejoins during mid-game, since the host's timer should be unchanged (as far as I know).[/quote] Correct. And if the end-game time is used, there's no difference whatsoever as the game and therefore the timer pauses when someone is joining.

[quote]About that, more in specific I think leaving and rejoining (to speed up the escape, for example) should not be banned, but put in the Any% category instead OR, like in PD2, in a complete different category called Shuffle which counts as a separate Any%.[/quote] That's actually a much better idea. I'm actually ok with either of those options, but then it can't be done the clients who record unless there's another video :)

If someone were to fall out of the map and get warped back up due to Dorhud or if someone were to get stuck and use "/respawn 1", should that disqualify the run?

I can only state my opinion and that is: it depends. I won't ban a run if this happens by accident. I did my best to balance these things by excluding some areas from the warp and add penalties for using the command that will get you arrested on the spot you were stuck at, so someone either has to go there or you'll have a 60 second timeout. However, technically you could abuse it, but I think it would be obvious if it was done intentionally to give your team an advantage. So in most cases I won't ban the run for it and in case of doubt I'll ask for a second opinion. So try to avoid it. :)

edit:

This post has been moved to https://www.speedrun.com/pdth/thread/mhq4i

I know multi-heist runs aren't really that great for this game but your write-up has barely anything concerning it. Whurrhurr and I did a pretty solid co-op original heists any% run but I'm pretty sure it is/should be DQed because we used Dorhud to restart a failed Panic Room instead of just downing ourselves but I can't be sure because we never got a true consensus on that (it should DQ a run!)

A rule should be clear like "If a client records, the host must take a screenshot at the end of every heist in order to verify times."

I really don't want to disqualify single heist runs because of who is recording, regardless if the run is recorded by the host or a client. I can't demand that on older runs, but I guess those can be assumed to be correct. Actually, now I think of it a screenshot of the hosts statistics for that heist are sufficient evidence that the time was the same, assuming the run is their best time there. Even the host mentioning it in the (voice)chat would be enough. On multi-day heists these things can add up and you probably don't get the best times for each individual level, so there screenshots or a video would be required. I'll edit the post even though it's not finalised yet. I even forgot to include that part in the rules as I wrote those down first before I added the details.

Having said that, I will edit my the end time sync snippet that comes with the DorHUD bugfixes mod to (optionally) print a message that the end time has been verified or corrected. Sure, this doesn't guarantee it hasn't been tampered with, but neither do videos or screenshots.

Most of what I down applies to everything, single and multi day heists. I now realise the post wasn't clear about host ending the game, so I should edit that. I personally don't have a problem with the host leaving the game to end the session or to use a mod to accomplish the same thing. These things are always slower than "perfect" runs and the game provides you the means to quickly end a heist out of the box. But if you think that should disqualify a run, then that's something to consider.

I guess with that in mind it's technically alright - I was thinking more of "well clients can't disconnect so host shouldn't be able to either" but host kicks everyone so it's really not so different from the heist being failed. I feel a bit weird about showing off some of the glitches (you know what I mean) but one strat isn't possible without it but I still want to show it off, I guess I'll decide later.

Haha, nice to see that you reused some of our ideas for the Payday 2 leaderboards. :D

The leaderboard rules seem fine so far. For Payday 2, due to the prominent use of mods and cheats, we decided to stay true to the strict speedrunning definition which is about running the original game without the help of third-party programs and such. BUT for a game where you can't restart a heist with a single click when playing multiplayer, it makes sense to allow using QoL mods that ease speedrunners' work, just like external timers.

There's something that bugs me though and that you should clarify, along with the community's opinion: what scope you want to give to these leaderboards. So far the main category is glitchless speedruns on Easy/Normal (or at least the difficulty the fastest objectives/easiest challenge). Those runs are the ones that show on the main page, then you have the logical solo/co-op distinction. What I find weird is that because any% isn't the main category (that will always feel awkward for me but I can understand that choice), I'd expect the leaderboards to be focused on challenge alla Payday 2 Tournament. Yet the main category also encourages running on the easiest setting.

This is what I want you to clarify along with the PDTH community: do you want leaderboards to be focused on pure speedrunning (any% easy) or challenge (glitchless OVK/OVK 145+)? Then choose the default subcategory accordingly. For Payday 2 we tried to find a compromise. Any% is the main subcategory (glitchless then botless when playing with bots started to grant huge time saves being secondary), but we also have any difficulty categories and highest difficulty categories. It originally was DW because it included many objective modifications that changed the heist length. MH and OD kinda ruined that balance because in terms of time saves all three difficulties are equivalent BUT OD and MH at launch featured some time saving glitches and some OD mechanics in general can be exploited in runs, and in terms of challenge MH is too similar to DW yet OD is far way harder. Hopefully we'll find a solution when game support ends. Anyway you get my point. I'm absolutely not forcing you whatsoever but I think that's something interesting to debate.

Regarding the shuffle subcategory, you also should either mention that it includes glitched runs, either that client disconnections do not void glitched runs. The latter seems more logical. If you already cleared that out in your previous posts, my mistake, I may have overlooked them.

Finally some nitpicking about SRC features. Shuffle category is pointless for solo runs as host can't disconnect to speed up a game. In order to remove it you have to edit current subcategory settings so that they only apply to co-op, then create new any% and glitchless subcategories (without shuffle) that only apply to solo. Depending on how many runs you'll have to edit afterwards, you can do it the other way around. Of course that means you'll have to manually edit each solo/co-op run to fit in the "new" subcategories, because SRC is not able to match subcategories that share the same name as far as I know. But anyway the sooner you do that, the fewer work you'll have to do. Creating the glitchless then botless subcategories for Payday 2 was a pain due to the sheer amount of runs we had to resubmit/edit, and especially due to duplicate runs. I haven't even finished to submit all botless runs for a few maps, and 2/3/4-player co-op subcategories aren't retroactive at all for now. Only Shuffle works because due to SRC's limitations it has effectively become a any% default subcategory. But right now editing DW and above categories for them to only show DW and OD difficulties when submitting a run (currently you're also able to set difficulty to Normal, Hard, etc. even though they're not valid difficulties for the category) would be downright impossible, as it would mean post-editing manually all OD runs.

Speaking of default subcategories, if you happen to change any% for it to become the main (default) category, you'll have to duplicate all glitchless runs into any% in case one of them is the overall WR, otherwise it wouldn't show up on the main page. Same thing for Shuffle for co-op, it would have to become the actual any%, that regroups glitchless runs where no one leaves, and glitched runs. You get my point.

I probably forgot some other points, but either way you're doing a great job, I wish you best of luck for moderating those leaderboards.

[quote]For Payday 2, due to the prominent use of mods and cheats, we decided to stay true to the strict speedrunning definition which is about running the original game without the help of third-party programs and such.[/quote] Yeah the game just has too many bugs to demand vanilla gameplay, not to mention the QoL stuff like skipping the intros or even just the bugfixes that prevent the game from crashing on every little thing. So I'm ok with mods as long as they don't give you any benefits you can't have otherwise because that would just be cheating.

[quote]This is what I want you to clarify along with the PDTH community: do you want leaderboards to be focused on pure speedrunning (any% easy) or challenge (glitchless OVK/OVK 145+)? Then choose the default subcategory accordingly. [/quote] That's exactly what I asked and most of the responses I got were to make the glitchless category the default. And for getting the fastest times, there's no real difference between OVK and easy for good teams. Individually there's a difference, but I can't demand OVK runs because so few people are even able to beat it on that difficulty on normal runs.

I personally like to get the fastest possible times on the highest possible difficulty, but I don't expect many people can even come close to the times on those difficulties and the community is already quite small. However there isn't much of a difference in how fast you can be between OVK and 145+ other than on Diamond Heist where the codes won't work.

Having said that, I wish there was a better way to distinguish these runs, e.g. having subcategories. But afaik there's no option to have a subcategory that includes all options and it would only become more of a mess than it already is.

[quote]Regarding the shuffle subcategory, you also should either mention that it includes glitched runs, either that client disconnections do not void glitched runs.[/quote] It's mentioned in a post here, but I haven't updated the actual rules yet.

[quote]Finally some nitpicking about SRC features. Shuffle category is pointless for solo runs as host can't disconnect to speed up a game.[/quote] Yes, I know I still have to do that. I tried earlier but I did something wrong and reverted the whole thing. But thanks for mentioning it. :)

-- edit: Now I remember why I didn't want to change those categories. There's no easy way to apply variables to multiple categories. :\

Banned jesus spots in glitchless. It affects 1 run: My slaughterhouse record :(