Hi everyone,

I wonder why there is no glitchless category. I personaly think glitchless is always an interesting category, because there are games beaten the "intended" way. And i also could submit a run :D

Glitchless is very hard to define, and most people are not interested in it, since it would involve a lot less stuff in the run and that leads to a more boring run. There were discussions about rules for such category, but you would have to ask around in discord to find out about it.

But as people always say - you don't need a leaderboard to run something you're interested in.

Hey

Hard to define? Why? I mean, glitchless is without glitches, so no death cam glitch or wrong warp for example. Yeah a glitchless run would have less or actually no stuff/glitches, but also more base game content, cause the runner had to do more there. Look at the Pokemon Games. The glitchless category there is huge as the glitched one. You got the glitched runs, which are 10-20 minutes and the glitchless runs from round about 2 to 3 hours. I think the same would count for Dark Souls (Remastered). There are a lot people who are not interested in glitched runs, cause they think glitches made games too easy, or they don't have a connection to such runs, so they are more interested in glitchless runs.

Yeah for sure. I do glitchless runs, not on a high level, but it's getting better :)

We had rules made for a glitchless category and someone was supposed to post them on the wiki and then we'd create a category afterwards but it just hasn't happened yet, unfortunately.

Were they made long ago or recently and just not addeded in the wiki? If it was long ago, are the rules recorded or still visible, or are they lost?

It was maybe like 6 or 7 months ago. Something like that.

Everybody has their own definition of a glitchless. And Dark Souls has a lot of grey area stuff, like duke skip or different jumps to lower undead burg. Something like toggle escape can happen even if you didn't intend to use it to gain advantage, would you have to reject such run?

As i said, nobody stops you from running something that's not on leaderboard.

You can always submit your run to the No Wrong Warp category, your view seems pretty narrow minded.

"Glitchless" is a pretty bad category name overall. In pretty much any game, there's going to be disputes on what constitutes a Glitch. Then the argument of "Glitch" vs "Exploit", and what should and shouldn't be allowed. Most people casually define a "Glitchless" category as playing the way devs intended, but devs don't typically expect something as simple as abusing iframes to get around obstacles.

Likewise, in Dark Souls, things like jumping from Burg to Lower Burg would be annoyingly gray. It's not a "glitch", but it's clearly not intended by the devs. Using Dark Sign before getting Boss Souls is probably not intended, but wouldn't really constitute a "glitch". If you want to play a "No Wrong Warp / No Death Cam" category then do that and submit it. Mods of games tend to be far more willing to add categories once someone has demonstrated that they'll run it. Not saying it will happen, but it's the best option you have.

I apologise for the bump, but I would like to voice my opinion in favour of OP. I've watched his Glitchless run currently submitted in Any% No Wrong Warp and it's a "category" I also run myself.

Yes - Glitchless is a fuzzy concept. But not impossible to define on a per game basis. Clearly "as the devs intended" is a terrible definition. I'm not an expert on the glitches in this game so it's not up to me to define these rules, but I think an easy start would be to include anything that exploits the menu to use more or less of an item than intended is a glitch. In that vain, moveswapping and glitching through walls and floors like the death cam glitch to get through sens gate and the new (?) glitch I've seen Regole use to fall directly onto firesage from the quelaag elevator are also easy to define as glitches. These skips are easily distinguishable from shortcuts that merely exploit developer oversights like Duke skip. (although I should say that if the category was extremely strict and didn't allow for Duke skip I would be fine with it)

What it comes down to is that all the categories currently on the leaderboard involve players getting an infinite amount of souls/items and in most cases not launching more than 20 attacks against enemies throughout the entire run. I find this fundamentally different from someone beating the game in a fast (but fathomably so) manner.

Yes - You don't need a leaderboard to run this category, that's why players like Dave and I run it. It's just fun! But having times to compare yourself to is fun and motivating.

Could anybody find these "glitchless" category rules? I'd love for there to be at least some official ruleset.

If we were to consider the establishment of a "Glitchless" category, imo we should look at every gray technique and define what is and is not allowed, like hivemind514 said. If you look at OOT Glitchless, they allow techs like Power Crouch Stabbing, Broken Deku Stick, Jumpslashes to extend jump lenght, collecting objects from the other side of collisions et cetera. To reply StrohhutDave comment about Pokémon, in Crystal (and I think other games as well) is permitted to use Trainer ID/RNG manipulation to obtain the lottery Masterball and Raikou Just after the Burned Tower. Were I to compile said rules, this would be the result: -Tech allowed: •Toggle Escape (and Toggle Running too? Is that a thing?) •Any form of Lower Undead Burg Skip (except of course Capra Skip) •Duke Skip (?) (While it's clearly another use of clever geometry abuse, it does skip a scripted death and a lot of opening doors) •Saving and Quitting (to reset aggro, to reset boulder cycle in Sen's Fortress, to save your life from falling in Painting Guardians section, to reset bossfights even) •Killing Ingward with bombs to obtain an early Key of the Seal (is that even a glitch?) •Elevator Warping in the Valley of Drakes to reset your position on top •Ceaseless Skip (on the line with LUB Skip and Duke Skip, another clever usage of geometry) •BOC optimizations (Tokhi Bombs) •PewDiePie Skip to skip Grigg's Lines of dialogue •other old optimizations that are not glitches and I really don't know -Tech NOT allowed: •Fall Control Quitout/Fall Damage Cancel/Memeroll/Slope Quitout: methods of manipulating kill mechanics that lead to sequence breaks •Item Dupe/Quantity Using/Quantity Dropping: methods of obtaining more items/souls than you can afford normally •Prompt Swap •Item Swap •Wrong Warp •Poopwalk (maybe could be useful in some section idk lol) •generally any other sequence break that involves going out of bounds, abusing different load times (Firesage Clip), abusing deathcams (Seal Skip/Sen's Skip) Just my opinion.

Yeah, that nails it as far as I'm concerned. Purists might want to see a category where stuff like Tohki bombs, Duke Skip and abusing quitouts are banned but as pointed out before that area just gets too grey. If the above were to be category rules there would be enough sufficiently difficult tricks to make the run interesting, without utterly breaking the game over your knee.

Any proposal of adding a new category should first be thoroughly defined and then forwarded to its actual community, runners and moderators from which the majority I can say out of experience don't really pay attention to the forums here. It's better to join the SpeedSouls and discuss the options there.

That said, I know out of experience that there hasn't ever been demand for a Glitchless category in the Remastered. Even the people prior to the users who are asking here had an incredibly hard time defining Glitchless themselves and without a failproof concept and a good lack of demand from other existing runners, it's probably better to just not consider this until that both happens.

Besides that @HardcoreBob and @Maste_Rem I would simply recommend starting with a run in one the existing categorie as already mentioned by the mods here. If anything, you could even run do a near Glitchless run in one of the normal categories as long as it abides by the current rulesets of those categories, and then come back on discussing this proposal further in the SpeedSouls Discord.

To end on that note, you can always do speedruns without the necessity of actual leaderboard categories through your own rulesets and your own standards. Not an utterly strange concept by any means of course.

Some Japanese runners do runs with their own ruleset, i don't see why you would be different and actually require a category for that. If mod team adds that category it's just going to end up dead after few runs, since the game is already not super active, and NWW runs are not that glitch heavy in the first place. With ruleset you proposed you would pretty much do almost exactly the run that was NWW a year ago, so why not just run that instead.

Hey, sorry for beeing busy lately. I'm happy that at least some people share my oppinion :D But i did some research on the things @Regole said here.

First i want say that the statement that a glitchless category would't have many interested player isn't true. 7 out of 30 runs in the NWW category are listed as glitchless (not even involved HardcoreBob) , thats almost 25%. And besides, we have a DSR category "All Achivements" with 1 runner, just saying.

In the speedsouls discord were rules made for a glitchless category, like regole said. I searched and found the discussion. It's in the "ds1-remastred" channel. There were two specific posts about the final rules, one link (https://pastebin.com/39EUXnPb), send by user "Ducksual" with the note that sheet were made by someone called "Milt", then a shorter version also by Ducksual, both posts were made on 24.08.2019. The rules were made, but the person which was supposed to put them on the wiki, so a category could be created, never did that. Thats the only reason that there isn't a glitchless category, so far as I understand that.

And yeah i know, you don't need a category for your runs. BUT, like @HardcoreBob said, if you have a leaderboard where you can compare yourself directly, it's way more motivating, and I think this would bring more people into it.

I thought about for 3 weeks if i want to submit my run in a category which is clearly not mine. Sure my run is horrible as hell and I have a lot to learn until it will be a decent run. But I think there are a lot people with the same thoughts, who don't submit their runs at all, cause they think: "why should I submit my glitchless run in a category with glitches where i can't compere my run to the others?"

So hope you understand my point and I'd love to have a discussion (probably on the speedsouls discord) about that, the ruleset, possible changes to the rules, etc, so we may have that category one day.

We're not saying having leaderboards with few people on it is a problem, just that we did come up with rules in the past and yet nobody was actually doing glitchless runs. Those were before the Remastered came out though and we not against the idea of a leaderboard. We will see what we can do.

Guess I'd like to bump this thread, since I've also been doing glitchless runs for DS1 and quite enjoy the category :)

I don't think I'm knowledgable enough to speak to the specific ruleset, but I'd love for the more erudite runners to define something that effectively outlaws item duping and sequence breaks that don't use in-game phyics (e.g. duke skip is possible using in-game physics, whereas Sen's skip is clearly a glitch).

Well, there is a clearly defined category with a ruleset now.

Hey guys! Not sure if this is the right place, but I've just finished my DSR Any% Glitchless run that I've been working on for a couple of years on & off, but really been grinding the past couple of months (as much as life commitments will allow anyway!). I have no recording equipment, my internet is far too bad & cheap to stream, but I finally got a run I'm happy with.

56:50 IGT

Playing on Xbox. Obviously I know this will never be verified and I'm not submitting anything, but I just wanted to share my personal happiness in the hopes we can all remember how good it feels to get that big PB! I had been stuck on 1:00:35 for ages and knew I had a good timesave just by playing safe and not dying, and finally it happened. The relief is unreal!

Anyway I hope somebody reads this and feels a bit of pride and encouragement. I love watching the runs you guys all submit, so keep grinding brothers, praise the sun!!! [T]/