There's an elephant in the room, and I think it's time to be addressed.
Explanation:
Throughout the past couple of months I'm sure many people have heard of the term "USB Loader" and all of the drama associated with this. I bring this post today not to start arguments, but to open up a discussion about an issue with the leaderboards. First, let's hop into exactly how everything came about.
USB Loader was used for a LONG time in Luigi's Mansion and previously not to have been thought to be a large difference in timing from disk. As more and more people started to use USB Loader (myself included), we came to a realization that it saves a significant amount time more than people once thought. Although that time may not be determined as it's impossible to time every loading zone, door animation, double and triple animation, etc. consistently, it was determined that USB Loader was unfairly faster than disc.
After much argument, the community came up with the decision to mark USB Loaded runs with a separate marker on the leaderboards [emu]. Although it may have made some sense at the time, the community later came to the decision to flat out ban USB Loaded runs from being submitted to the leaderboards. This leaves the lingering [emu] times that we see here today.
Issue:
As it stands, there are no USB Loaded times allowed to be submitted to the leaderboard. On the contrary to that, there are currently USB Loaded runs [emu] still left on the leaderboard from the aftermath of the previous decisions. This leaves a large gap in fair timing between people who are striving to get to the top and can't get there from a significantly unfair disadvantage. Not only that, but the OoB category is near impossible to obtain a WR in because of timing differences from USB Loader to disc. All of our #1 times in three important categories are on banned versions of the game.
Proposal:
My proposal is to erase [emu] times completely from the Luigi's Mansion Leaderboards. This will create a sense of fairness throughout the community and not competing against unfair and BANNED versions of the game itself. This is not a particular attack against anyone, but rather a want to create a sense of fairness throughout the leaderboards.
Pros:
- A sense of fairness throughout the leaderboards and community by playing and competing on equal grounds
- A less confusing leaderboard system to any newcomers into the Luigi's Mansion community
- A fair and accurate documentation of who's times are faster will be available rather than guessing due to unknown timed version differences
Cons:
- People will have their personal times removed from the leaderboard and will have to obtain new disc PBs
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions. Please post on this thread with your ideas on how to contribute and fix this problem. I'm going to leave this thread up until Friday, 4/1/2016 at 11:59 PM Eastern time zone and we will see what the majority thinking is.
Please don't insult each other, keep things civil and factual, and we can come to an understanding and conclusion to this nonsense.
Thanks, Adam (GC)
I believe that because they are completely not allowed, that the times should probably be removed. It seems like people are being confused by their existence and they're thinking they can submit emulator times, which is not the case at all. I think it would be fair to remove them, in my personal opinion of course :)
I agree with the proposal. I believe that it's unfair to have times on the leaderboards from a version that other players are not allowed to use, especially considering the majority of the categories have world records set on this version that was deemed too unfair for use. I was a huge proponent of banning USB loader originally, and wanted USB times banned. I still want this, and the compromises we've met have been illogical, especially when paired together.
I think that the USB times that are on the leaderboards right now should be removed.
I definitely agree with this proposal. We need to delete all USB Loaded times to prevent confusion among any new runners who might be confused. Next, with the banned times still on the leaderboards, such as the WR's from Any%, Any% OOB, and 100%, it'll nearly be impossible for anyone else to beat those times because it was done on a banned version, and so far only one runner has obtained a 1:12 on disc in 100% and nobody has obtained a 58 on disc in Any%. Getting rid of USB times will improve the leaderboards as a whole since there will only be disc times on it.
As i've shared my opinion before but i'll post here.
I would leave it as it, because that's what we allowed it before the emulator was banned. And we did discuss that we concluded is, that we left to the runner's decision that will remove his time or it will stay until it beats with disc.
I feel it's unfair to removing their times without consent that they reach these times that they did with lot of effort. Someone asked these people who ran with [Emu] times and most of them removed theirs, now there aren't many [Emu] and it'll be gone in no time.
I believe someone did time the difference in-between and it's not big difference and i think it's possible to beat these times, plus that we lifted the ban S+Q, now it's more easier to beat it.
It could be confusing but it's stated in the rules on leaderboards and they can ask about it.
The only thing that I have to respond to that toz is that the timing that was done is inconsistent and not widely considered to be correct. It's speculated to be much more of a difference than what was timed. That being said, thanks for posting your opinion and I look forward to seeing what other people have to contribute <3
We should take the USB times, and PUSH THEM SOMEWHERE ELSE.
I'm pretty indifferent whichever way it goes. I will say though that I think there should be an attempt to contact those affected by time removal if the proposed notion goes through.
I would agree with removing the USB loader times, and I wasn't even greatly in favor of banning USB loader in the first place. The main reason I believe they should be removed is because keeping them up there went against a precedent that was already set not too long before the USB loader ban.
When Neogamma was banned as a loader, the only runner who was known to use it on his runs had his times ripped off the leaderboards, just like that. It was allowed when he ran it, and nobody even let him into the discussion on whether the loader should have been allowed or not. It was just straight up unfair to remove his times like that, and to let USB loader times stand after that was banned afterwards would just seem like a slap in the face if it were me...
I can see what you mean with not being fair to runners and just taking their hard-earned times down without any real notice. I do agree that we should at least attempt to contact them and let them know of this change. Maybe there could be a couple weeks after the decision is made to give the runners time to hear about the change and respond, so we can stay respectful throughout this process?
Well, it looks like there's only 3 USB times on the leaderboards and 2 of which don't even run the game anymore. And we're talking to Sarcrai now
Javi, I respect your opinion entirely and yes it would be an inconvenience to you personally. I don't want to create problems for people, and I know that your time is improvable and you know it too. However, it wouldn't just be you affected and this isn't a single targeting so to speak.
Every single [emu] time would be taken down with this, not just yours.
For the references of soccer, in a game people aren't competing against previous game's stats. In speedrunning, you're competing against someone's previous personal best. The analogy doesn't quite work.
I just don't see how it's fair for the people under you to have to work harder than you to get a better time because of a banned version difference.
Done and just so you guys know there are times there without video which are via USB loader :) Lots of love.
i don't completely agree with the usb loading rule but that's a different matter,
If you really wanna delete times i guess that's up to the community, personally I don't really think it's necessary even if the people don't run the game anymore, I just don't think there's any point to it, unless those people are on world record status, then that's something that should be considered, overall I say just leave them, especially if they plan on improving their time through disc later on, don't fix what isn't broken.
Well, i expected this to be a bit more crazy but it seems it's already settled before i got here lol, that is good :)
