This thread has been created in order to discuss the viability of a name change for the glitchless category.

Glitchless has been added around the 20th of november 2018. Its full conceptualization is to be attributed to Elsiz, eight months prior.

The reasoning behind its creation were the following :

• Due to the sheer amount of skips that had to be learnt in order to ensure a high spot in the rankings, ans also because of their rough nature (being particularly difficult to pull off, a few of them being run-killers, and causing the flow of the game to be halted), they were eventually seen as tiresome and frustrating to top players to use, and uninviting to beginners. Not very fun stuff.
• A significant portion of the game (most notably the entirety of Vision 6) was bound to never be played again by runners because of those skips. It was a real waste.

Now that that's explained, one might wonder as to why the category was called this way. It doesn't have much to do with glitches. Well, that part was just not taken care of very well. And because of that, it is bound to confuse people. In fact it already did.

So the question is : Do you agree that we should change it to something else ? What would then be the new name ? "No Major Skips", "Any% (no skips)" ? Comment your opinions below.

I'll leave this open until this saturday at 23:59 (roughly four full days from now).

I'm for the change personally, and would choose "No Major Skips" as then new name. It's apparently a relatively common term in speedrunning.

Glichtless is self-explainatory in my opnion, is there any new strat people want to do on that cat? That might be considered glitch? Otherwise i don't see why the change. Not totally against it, just want to understand the point

I think Glitchless is a smaller group than No Major Skip. A glitchless run is automatically without major skips, but a no major skips run, depending on the game, might feature minor skip. Are they all glitches? I don't know. Glitchless has various skips that are not glitch.

In my opinion I see the term glitchless and no major skips as the same thing so I don't mind if we change it or not.

No, its mostly just for clarification purposes.

Why is it called glitchless when you can still use glitches such as : door opening animation skips, hit while in double-jump animation... (well now that I think about it there aren't a lot of them. But still if we exclude the skip ones). And, skips that are not glitch based (4-2 end screen skip, 6-2 end skip, 5-2 gate) are implied to be allowed, which isn't the case.

The term of glitchless to me doesn't really convey what the category is about. It should try to convey that all skips are banned, because the point is to go through everything. A while ago, we had the category rule be modified to clarify what the category actually was.

But maybe, the glitchless term holds a bigger connotation that would encompass this issue. I'm not really knowledgeable on any of this tbh.

I would have to agree with both Luna, for glitchless being a self-explanatory category, due to the impossibility of executing glitches and skips in the run, but also have to agree with Harutomo for a name change, 'cause all skips in the game can be interpreted as glitches, but not all glitches can be considered as skips, so I believe there's a confusion.

No major skips in my humble opinion would be a more fitting name for the category, just because of little 3D skips like in 2-1, 3-1 and 4-1 are not considered as major skips and are often used in runs, and disallowing the other major glitches like door animation skips, wall clips, moo fence skip, green orb skip and the big 4-1 and 6-2 3D Jump skips, which at the moment are considered more like major skips and less like major glitches.

I think I slightly prefer the "No Major Skips" name to "Glitchless," because I think it more accurately reflects what the actual rules cover:

-The major skip in 4-1 is disallowed, even though I don't think it can reasonably be called a "glitch." Same with the clock trick in 5-1. Both of these are major skips that clearly violate the spirit of the category (and the actual rules, of course), but the title "glitchless" doesn't really give any hint that they're not allowed.

-Other small tricks, like shooting through giant moos, plane jumps, skipping Gelg Bolm's pollen (??) attack, and things that let you regain control of Klonoa earlier than intended (shooting after taking damage, using the double jump storage to open doors faster), and general hitbox weirdness ARE allowed, even though I can imagine a casual viewer seeing them and complaining that they look like glitches and are therefore obviously cheating.

-The first line of the rules already literally says "Should be understood as 'no major skips.'"

That said, I don't really care what the title is, but I DO like the rules as they currently are and don't see any harm in changing the name to something that is more in line with what the category actually is.

EDIT: Balneor pretty much already said everything I just said in his previous post.

As far as I know the issue is the wall clipping skips? You can call the category "No (whatever your name for the wall clips is)".

Well, based on the discussion we had, it looks like we're going to change the name to No Major Skips. I'm gonna have to tweak the rules slightly, but nothing important to worry about. I also don't really need to close the thread.

Well actually, "No Major Skips" imply that minor skips (5-1 blue orb w-c, 4-1 w-c, 5-2 w-c and other smaller skips would be implied to be allowed. So that's still a problem.

It seems like the name "any% (no skips)" would suit best for that role (and not just "No skips" alone, since it sounds incomplete).

Does my old run count as a no skips run?

Your PB uses the 5-1 clock skip and the block bypass in the second path of 6-2, so it doesn't (I didn't take a look at your other obsolete times however)

I see. You should specify that those two skips are not allowed, since they are the most common and known skips from old runs. The obsolete times are indeed obsolete and don't matter now.

Both tricks would respectively be understood to be banned because of the : "No pulling enemies through unintended doorways." (due to the player jumping over a low ceiling the devs had placed to prevent enemy carrying) "Skips between parts of the same rooms are not allowed under the condition that the place the player would arrive at from the skip is, under normal gameplay circumstances, [...] unreachable through normal means (e.g : old 6-1 skip before wall-clips were a thing). [...]". But it's true that that restriction section is kind of a mess. So I've just updated it (and all three other categories as well, for more consistency and clarity).

Easier to understand now.