Although one of my favorite Zelda Speedrunners is gymnast86, I am probably going not going to earn any good will from him by posting this thread where I argue that his skip of the Helmaroc King in his 5/31/17 Glitchless run should be a disqualifying factor in that run. This is the run:
First and foremost, let me say that this was not because as he said, the only thing he did was "bomb boost." I read the rules, listened to his commentary, and understand that bomb boosting is permitted. I'm creating this complaint because WHERE he bomb boosted to, which was onto spikes acting as a barrier (The moment can be found 2:18:00 into the run), which to me is along the same lines as using the cliffside bomb + the Korok Leaf to clip through the wall and, for example, skip the first floor of Ganon's Tower.
Second, the other argument gymnast86 gives of boosting over spikes in the video is that the spikes were lazy design on Nintendo's part instead of a glitch. That doesn't really hold water, at least in my view, because 1. Glitches can and have caused by lazy design decisions and 2. Spikes are a Nintendo staple of "Do Not Touch" across multiple franchises, crossing them without dying is not the same as bomb boosting onto an inbounds ledge. This wasn't exploiting a loophole. It was using a bomb boost to clip a spike barrier. It even looks like Link is glitching because the abnormal animation slide at 2:18:10 in the video.
I understand if I fall into the minority on this, but the justifications for gymnast86 skipping a boss fight being not a glitch is weak at best, and if the glitchless rules really do support his rationale, then I would hope that the glitchless rules are tightened to stop this because while the definition of a glitch can be argued, skipping a mandatory boss fight by clipping over spikes does not seem to fall in any gray area of being a glitch. It's a glitch.
PS. To Gymnast86, I do feel a little bad to be calling you on this because I am a fan and for what it's worth, you have a great voice... but your attempt to bend the rules of Glitchless Wind Waker did not in any way appear to be a bend when I saw what you did.
In the case of Helmaroc Skip, we are using the bomb boost technique to gain enough height which allows us to go up and over the vertical collision presented by the spikes. There is no clipping involved in this version of the skip. The collision made for the spikes basically represents a rectangular prism and we are using the height from a bomb boost to exceed the height of the vertical surface on this prism. Clipping would involve going ¤through¤ collision, not around it.
The top surface of this prism also does a constant quarter heart of damage to Link like other spikes in the game which we go across as well (in Wind Temple and the Molgera boss trial in Ganon’s Tower). All of these spikes have a limit to the height they extend and this height can be exceeded through various allowed methods.
I can understand why many would think skipping a big developer intended part of the game might seem unethical to the “spirit” of glitchless. However, for Wind Waker HD (and most other Zelda titles) the category glitchless is defined by methods, not results. You’re allowed to skip whatever you want, but you’re confined to the techniques which are allowed in the category. Based on these grounds Helmaroc Skip is valid using the bomb boost method. Obviously though not everybody has the same idea as to which techniques are glitches and which aren’t. Because of this, a perfect set of rules will likely never exist for the category. There are other people who argue that techniques such as leaf pumping or skipping the Wind God’s Aria stone in wind temple by sidling should be considered glitches as well. There will always be controversy with any techniques involved. I’m sorry that the Helmaroc Skip makes you feel that the category has been cheated in a way. However, I will be performing the skip when running this category. Very few people before me have actually run glitchless and therefore formally defined rules were never created due to lack of interest, which I would expect to continue once I finish running it.
I do understand your reasoning for considering Helmaroc Skip to be a glitch, and I respect it. If for some reason a whole community of people suddenly had the urge to run glitchless and they all wanted the Helmaroc Skip banned, then the rule would probably be put in place and my run could be considered invalid. With the history of the category though, I wouldn’t expect something like this to happen.
In any case, I will be done with this category soon and moving on to 100% where we can have debates over what should be required in the 100% category instead! Hope to see you there!
After watching your glitchless second run, I'll admit Helmaroc King skip looks a lot less "glitchy" when you get it right the first time, but there's something else in that stream I think you should consider because I know I'm not the only one who... raised eyebrows... at that skip. Instead of debating out the difference between what qualifies as glitch, I think you (and whoever else is in charge of the rules) should implement the recommendation you gave on yesterday's stream: change the name of the category to "Bug Limited." The extra step that I would recommend on top of that is if someone truly insists on no bug runs, then the comeback should be for them to upload speedruns to create a "Bug Limit: 0" category... which I may or may not be seeing if I have the budget to get the gear to pull off.
This is the basic discussion that always happens regarding "glitchless" or "bug limit" runs- it's very hard to define by what you allow and disallow, thus leading to seemingly arbitrary lines. The community usually does define these arbitrary lines, however, they are still arbitrary and others can disagree- it will happen. I usually find a solution being banning ¤results¤ rather than ¤techniques¤, but I think this approach is extremely unpopular with communities, and as a result is not implemented nearly as often as it should.
