Hello everyone! As you might have seen, there's a newly found method of beating the ninja by iLL_Pazzo and Tromboncino. It consists of two parts basicaly, first we skip the 2nd cutscene leading into phase 2. Then we extend the phase endlessly until the ninja's health is fully depleted to end the fight. Effectively we can now beat the Ninja without needing to wait for any cutscene or dialog. This works on both the PC (2000) version and the console/emulator versions.

here's the IL example by Pazzo: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/runs/zpwj3lvy

here's the initial tutorial: Now with that being said, it begs the question: is this method allowed for glitchless or not? Discuss and we'll gather your opinions wether this method should be allowed for the glitchless category or not.

Thank you

For me personally, this is not glitchless nor "no major glitches" valid. We can attack the ninja while he is in his cutscene which is a clear and cut glitch to me.

I don’t know for the NMG, it’s not a skip per se, like the vent glitch. So it could be ok in my opinion

Definitely a glitch though, so certainly not glitchless.

Both ninja cutscenes are skipped in ways that are not really intended so this is a glitch

Skipping an ''unskipable'' cutscene, having his monologue played while he just stands in one place or follows you without attacking (as long as the monologue plays) while you can attack him and him having the sword out after that the whole time looks like a glitch to me :), so i say no.

I think it should be allowed in glitchless. You aren't skipping the fight, or making it easier. If anything, based on the tutorial, it looks pretty timing specific, and you are making it harder.

Firstly, The category rules state the following things:

"Complete the game defeating all bosses without performing any major skips or glitches."

You still complete the game while defeating all bosses, and without performing a major skip, or a major glitch. You are just PPKing and PPTing as intended by the boss fight, you're just doing them in a way that lets you beat the boss more quickly than other ways of beating the boss.

Secondly, I don't see how the following can be allowed by the cateogry rules, and this cutscene skip can't be allowed:

"Skipping the Communication Tower A cutscene at the start of the stair climb by throwing a Grenade is ALLOWED"

Skipping the Comm Tower Cutscene is far more of a glitch than skipping this cutscene is IMO, as it even makes the ascension easier, and changes the behaviour of the guards/software in a way that is opposite to the developers intention. Skipping one cutscene in the ninja fight doesn't.

This is definitely a glitch to me. If it was only for the phase extension it would have been only an exploit, but the cutscene skip is a glitch. The dialog plays while the Ninja is confused and the animation is skipped, it's definitely a glitch. Also, the Ninja has his katana out for the whole fight and has weird/bugged animation which is definitely a breaking of the game. So i'd say no for Glitchless/NMG. Plus it would differenciate even more AB and Glitchless, making those categories really different and both worth of interest.

@BigguBossu the communication tower cutscene skip is intended by devs, definitely not a glitch

No chance of "bone and sinew", no RNG with hide-and-seek.

No way can this be allowed for NMG or Glitchless. It's a glitch, and is, indeed, major.

That's a no for glitchless, its obviously a glitch since normally you cant skip the dialogue.

Yeah this is definitely a glitch as was stated from Repeatszzzzz. It’s skipping an unskippable cutscene and in my opinion putting him in a glitched state. So that’ a no for me when it comes to NMG.

First of all, the category itself should just go back to "No Major Glitchles" because in the current route, there are things like using a nade at Mantis, Leaning to avoid damage and Skating to name a few that are borderline glitches but are still allowed.

Then, for the actual Ninja, the whole deal comes by abusing a specific frame after the throw where the Ninja can be hit by anything, but the game gets confused and plays a different outcome based on the situation.

By doing this after dealing enough damage for him to skip phase, the game just tries to play two things at once, the cutscene camera change and the Ninja's position. However, we're blocking Fox's position by dealing damage, and for phase 1 we're lucky that the game reacts like that because of the katana animation and doesn't switch to the cutscene. If you try to do that on the other two phases, however, the results change, and if you do that by throwing Fox first but not dealing enough damage in the first place, abusing that frame just extends the current phase.

HOWEVER, this can also happen randomly on a normal gameplay, with Fox getting stuck by himself on this exact frame. And it reproduces the same effect of forcing it out with a throw. AND, basically all of his flips have this 1 frame where he can be frame perfectly hit and it does funny stuff breaking him. On top of it, we can literally have the same phase delay effect by throwing a Chaff.

Or randomly playing the game like it's supposed to like shown here...

https://www.twitch.tv/tromboncino_/clip/AlertColdbloodedHummingbirdOhMyDog-3cBZ7IS4EUkrYi6s

https://www.twitch.tv/tromboncino_/clip/ImpartialCrowdedGazelleBibleThump-rnizMdULgQ5e7ynZ

SO, TL;DR The fight is jank and we're just exploiting it by poking it in the right place with basic gameplay tools, exactly like what we do with Mantis. And even if we didn't, it could still break on its own. Allow it for No Major Glitches.

^ Preach.

Either everything that lets you skip an "unskippable cutscene" should be allowed, or none of them should be allowed, because they are all glitches, and grandfathering in old ones, while not allowing new ones in is not in keeping with the existing rules of the category.

Not a glitch. Trom's post is dead on.

Agree with Trom

I have to agree here given trom's vod, I've gotten the ninja sort of stuck there before but not for that long or that much damage but its not like you're doing anything weird that the game shouldn't expect. I've always been up there just to hopefully avoid having to chase him ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I don't see what the issue would be tbh.

current voting stats

Specifically the vote determines if the first glitch (the one that leads to us being able to move and attack the ninja while he is stuck in the cutscene with the audio playing between phase 1 and phase 2) should be allowed for the currently named glitchless category.

Not allowed for Glitchless: 10

@Hau5test @Will0H_ @Horizon @repeatzzzzz @iLL_Pazzo @VolcanicAkuma55 @flynamix @UzunKing @Twil1ght @Plywood

Allowed for Glitchless: 5

@BigguBossu @Tromboncino @dlimes13 @apachesmash @MetalGlennSolid

I'll leave the poll up for another 24 hours so people that haven't checked SRDC yet over the weekend can catch up and decide or other people that have previously voted may change their mind with latest responses. thanks for the participation so far!

i think its a glitch

@UzunKing so not allowed for glitchless? just making sure to not misinterpret your answer

i mean its not allowed for glitchless.