Hi all, am new here!
I speedrun an old C64 game Flimbo's Quest and there are only two of us I am aware of who currently do this. Recently I discovered through memory watching and such tools that the game has item drops similar to Legend of Zelda [on a counter in each level] but more interestingly, that the rng for target enemies is very arcane. Since that discovery I've halted my speedruns because it's going to turn the whole game upside down.
-Game has a memory byte whose value runs between 00 and FF. -At the start of each level there is a fixed uneven distribution so that each value corresponds to a set enemy, and some have higher frequency. There are hot spots for particular enemies or groups. -Each time an enemy is pulled, all slots in the memory with it in, are supplanted by n-1 in the order.
The byte's incrementation is not fixed, I am working on mapping this because it means that there are 'dead' zones on each level where standing in a particular location can freeze or slow it. Because of the distribution this also means that one can sort of manipulate the byte to give higher probability of better enemies.
This manipulation can be achieved by normal means but much, much less accurately because it is not directly correlated with in-game timer. You would know the enemy targeted but have no clue where in the distribution you were, and so further manipulation would be sheer guesswork.
I am curious whether any other games have a feature like this where being able to view the memory [either a. only the byte's value between enemies, or b. the changes during gameplay] makes such a big difference to runs, and further, what those games' positions are currently on the rules regarding memory viewing of any sort, during speedrun attempts.
I am currently inclined to think that it would be reasonable to permit runners to view the static value between enemies, but not to see the changes during play. This would enable you to know what pocket of the distribution you landed in, but would mean you still rely on your skill to manipulate it. Thus the game remains outside of TAS bounds to my understanding. That would be as opposed to having the ability to mess around on screen until the hot spot approached in view.
Opinions, info would be greatly appreciated, the more info I have before consulting the game's other runners would be very helpful.
Viewing the game’s memory during the run, even if you’re not changing any values. is pretty much universally banned. If you do that, it’s considered tool assisted since you need to use external software to view it and you can gain extra knowledge from something that is not normally available to a player.
Yeah no there are plenty of games where viewing memory values during runs would be super helpful and busted.
Put more simply: if it's not something you can do sitting down with original hardware and nothing else, should it be allowed?
Lol, wow, didn't realise speedrunning was so much in the dark ages even after fifteen years! Guess my wr is safe then nvm xD
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Can’t tell if trolling or legit response. It’s not the dark ages, speedrunning has never allowed that kind of stuff outside of TAS runs. Using external software to gain an advantage in a game is the literal definition of a tool assisted run, that’s why that kind of thing isn’t allowed. It’s why Zelda 1 runners can’t have memory watchers open to see what their drop counts are - they have to memorize it and keep track of the counts in their head. It’s the way speedrunning has always been in regards to this kind of stuff and it won’t change any time soon.
I can't read it but when you arn't speed running the game nothing wrong with memory watching and the what not maybe to help give a better understanding of the game or maybe find something new and exciting. I do think during a run it shouldn't be allowed. Kind of like an athlete using performance enhancing drugs being banned it kind of the same thing. I think it's good it's banned :) it is not the dark ages at all ^^
I don't even like health displays for games where health is hidden from the player. I'd personally balk at the idea of ram watching.
That said, as I'm learning quickly there is no universal rule set for speed running, it's all very much down to what the community for individual games decide. So I guess it's up to what you and the other person who run this game want to do.
But yeah, It's tool-assisted I don't even think that's debatable. You need a tool to watch the ram.
No one's arguing whether or not viewing ram values outside of a run is allowed
But during a run? That's a different story.
If you understand how the RNG affects the game, the next step is to figure out how to determine the RNG values using only the cues given to you in-game. The goal being to cut out the middle-man (memory viewing) entirely. For instance, if you can find the game's "dead zones" by just playing, how can you use that information to determine what the values in memory are without actually looking at the memory?
In Super Mario Bros, there are certain cues you can look at on the screen to gauge the RNG for the level. I don't know it as well as some people do, but there's one level where you hit a star block to save a frame rule. Whether or not you have to hit the block on the first pixel or not depends on some RNG, but there's a certain pixel in the floor blocks that you can look at to tell which one it is. The game has a bunch of stuff like this, including how to determine the hammer bros spawn locations and bowser's hammer cycle using the in-game timer that's better explained here: