@alfredosalza, many of the community members have been asking for you to make changes to the leaderboards. Below is a document that has been written up by some of the community members and other members back it up. Please read through this document.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j93E56k8WiAsY15btRAw7xfEDISIyhe1/view?usp=sharing
I honestly 100% agree with everything that was said in this. There's no reason that the leaderboard shouldn't make these changes. It was also interesting to know he just has a copy and paste response for any changes that want to be made seen on the board.
I think there should be another mod on this board honestly. The rules on speedrun.com even say that we should aim to have at least 3 qualified mods on the board. I don't see a reason why we shouldn't vote another person in. I would say @Nichole would be a great person to add as a new moderator.
I second what Insomnimatic says.
There are a few instances I feel definitely could’ve been handled better. Just to give one example on one of the threads that talked about a rule change (the post that confirms the ban of the Disney Classic Games release) BinaryDragon requested that the rule be reverted until the community made some inputs on the matter. Alfredo, you claimed that the WR holder was talked to. The WR holder is NOT the voice of the community. While yes, I would agree that their input is very important since they have dedicated a ton of time into the game, they do not speak for everyone. Everyone needs to have equal input in decisions, even in rules that are changed/applied.
As with another moderator added to the board, I agree that @Nichole would be a great choice. @PlayingWithDick would also be a great choice, too. There are many members out there like them that can help out. Boards should not be run by one single person, nor should decisions be made by just a moderator and a WR holder. Things should be brought up to the community and discussed between community members.
I also agree with the proposed changes and I think this community is big enough to have 2 moderators either way, just so there's isn't any future issues, I think @Nichole would also be a good choice help run the page.
Should definitely be changed, and should definitely be more than one mod. The only reason this is an issue at all is from a clearly held bias. It shouldn't take this much to make changes a majority agrees on.
Not to belittle the changes by saying they're minor, but I feel it should be emphasized that the changes listed aren't even a huge deal which reflects incredibly poorly on the stubbornness of @AlfredoSalza more than anything else. Hope the situation resolves soon.
I must say, the community has evolved considerably over the past few years, while the rules have remained fairly constant. This means that the rules are no longer representative of the community, and changes to said rules should be inevitable and quite uncontroversial. That would seem more sensible than to adopt a strict traditionalist sort of approach.
Alright, so I'm here to give my input on all of this, especially since I've been mentioned a number of times.
@AlfredoSalza, your comment about me being "not granted" is insulting, to say the least.
"About adding more moderators: I have said in various instances that if you want to be a mod of TLK, you can ask for mod in the "Request leaderboard moderation" thread on the main forums. Of course, this implies that you need to present a pretty good argument as to why you (an individual, by the way) wants to be a mod...
... Nichole already used the forum mentioned above to ask for moderation and it was not granted."
I came to you asking to help out because this game is very near and dear to me, and I wanted to be able to help the community however I could. You directed me to the forums. As it turns out, those are to be used when the current mod is entirely inactive, and not to just ask for help. I wasn't denied, you set me up for failure.
Original Thread: https://www.speedrun.com/the_site/thread/dueac/25
My message to you originally: Nichole Goodnight 09/15/2019 Heya! I don't know what all is involved but if you ever want another mod for the lion king on snes/genesis etc I'd be happy to help out
Your initial response: AlfredoSalza 09/15/2019 Hi. You can ask for moderation here https://www.speedrun.com/The_Site/forum
And of course, your response in the thread: Regarding The Lion King: I just wanted to state that I have not asked for help moderating the leaderboard. I usually verify runs just a few hours after getting the alert via email, as I have been doing so for a few years now, even with the (marginally) increased activity as of late. Cheers.
Since that time, you threw a fit on Genesis and passed away that leadership, so that's neither here nor there.
The community has valid points and I am happy to throw my name in as someone that they did consult about all of this. Multiple of us have had awful experiences with you. Me personally? I came to you asking to help, you sent me to where I thought I could request this - PER YOUR ADVICE - and then you acted like I was insulting you, publicly, in response.
Let's not forget your response to me -
AlfredoSalza 09/16/2019 Yeah, I handled the situation poorly. I should have explained to you that the "moderation request" forum is basically to revive dead leadearboards.
You knew all along that this wasn't the path to take and you still not only sent me there, but have the audacity to put it in your pastebin as a valid method.
Your list of people you would add is great and all, but on it are there any active runners? Akiteru is the most recent I believe (and very helpful and knowledgeable, so a good choice honestly). I haven't heard of 2/4 of the names you mention. You don't even run the game currently do you?
You don't have the community's best interest in mind and that's that. There is not much more to be said about it. You've pushed back on everything. When I was trying to get DCG added you'd go through and like my posts and do absolutely nothing about it. I had to reach out to you personally just to get denied again for something that the capable Genesis board had already added.
Be better for the community.
"2) DCG is already added to the LB, as I stated in my latest pastebin."
Dude, DCG looks like it was just slapped on there within a minute with ZERO thought put into it. It's basically like you just said "here you go now shut up" without saying it directly.
The rules are literally as following: "-Category for the "Disney Classic Games" version of the game".
Ok, since nothing else was mentioned in the rules for this category, I would be able to rewind, and use all the other bonus features included in that release. And I'd be able to argue that there are literally no rules for that category when a run like that is submitted. And no, it doesn't say it in the rule set for the original version of the game, so again, that category is just free for all. It just SCREAMS lazy.
Nichole even offered suggestions how exactly to list the category, and you just liked the post and ignored it from there.
"3) It is not a surprise to me that you haven't heard 2/4 of the names."
How are we expected to know these community members if they don't even talk in the discord or the forums? Akiteru is fine, due to the fact that he actually talks in the discord, but the others? What????? TMR hasn't said anything in the discord for going on 3 years, meaning, yes! He is not an active part of this community! He doesn't talk with the community, in a public way at least, that would make him fit for a mod on this game. Fonzoide, my god, hasn't been on speedrun.com in over a month (which a mod needs way more activity than that), and is not on the discord, nor has ever spoke on the forums. Not to mention, his last run on this game 6 years ago. Besides Akiteru, why were these runners even thought of??
It's not all about being an constant runner (though yes, Fonzoide and his 6 years ago is WAY too long), but if they're not even an active part of this community then no, they do not have any reason to be a moderator for this game and do not deserve it.
Who wrote this PDF? It comes across as some anonymous revolutionary manifesto which is a little... extra, to say the least.
I think the big problem is that it feels you are running this leader board as a ruler not as the ‘doing as the community wants’ which is the role of a mod. When new requests are asked for I believe they should be brought up in the discord for discussion and votes (Unless they have already been recently posted on in the last year or something).
I think it’s important to remember your opinion is still valid on arguments and that’s good but also you still only have 1 vote on issues.
You cannot have a short list of other mods you would allow, you can have a vote with the community and express your thoughts but ultimately we need to have a discussion and choose as a community. And yes as stormy was saying apart from Akiteru, all those options are terrible as they are not active and don’t know what the community wants. I also hadn’t heard of 2 of them and TMR hasn’t been active at all since I’ve been here at least. I think that goes with kingtayyab’s comment in that with the community growing we need a more modern approach (at least a more active one).
Apart from bringing normal% out of Misc. all other options don’t change the look of the front page if your concern was ‘keeping it less confusing for new people’ I think you also may be misjudging people intelligence if you think that would be off putting.
Basically, you have people showing support for ideas that will make this game more active. This is the community here. If anyone has any points for or against any proposed changes let’s use this forum to sort it out. At the moment I see 7? (I’m on my phone so can’t check) users agreeing with change and 1 against.
This has been linked in the discord so hopefully everybody will be able to post there opinions here.
@AlfredoSalza "I talk with Fonzoide every week and TMR recently started streaming in Twitch again. I'm sorry if you don't know or care about them." I'm not saying I don't know nor care about them. Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying what would qualify them as mods is not their activity in OTHER communities or other places like twitch. What matters is their interaction within THIS community here, which I see none of.
I am personally curious why you list three people not active in the community over people that are not only active but have a vested interest in the community and its' growth. This isn't to start anything, I'd just love to know your reasoning.
Being a mod of a board typically means you're interested in it and you would like to work with the community and see things grow and change. You listing people that are not even a part of the community is odd to me, and I'd love to know your reasons behind it. That aside, you've never seemed to have an interest in the community at all. Most of the people that have interacted with you have gotten sass or some form of snark back, which should not be how it is. I've had others confide in me that they've experienced similar to what I have when it comes to interacting with you. It's not my place to name them without them agreeing, but the concern is there and it is valid.
For the record, I didn't approach any of these people that suggested me as a co-mod, by the way - as I'm sure you may assume. Having a love for the game and a desire to see new people join in and interact with the community is more than likely what got me mentioned. I'm an active runner that not only runs the game for marathons, but also commentates on Lion King runs. Id' say I'm fairly heavily involved in the Lion King scene.
I do agree about changes being put to a vote. It's true that we can't have just anything that we want on the boards, but if the community as a whole wants it and would use it, where is the harm.
As long as whatever is the majority consensus here is honoured, that’s all we can really ask for, of course we can give it a couple days for everybody to have a chance to express themselves, we know the active player base is very responsive on discord so it shouldn’t take long for those that do care about changes to put there input in.
Also Alfredo, could you expand on what you mentioned regrading individual level leader boards being a problem on other games? They seem to just add an extra column to the right of the page like in the genesis version, I’m not sure how this could impact the current leaderboard quality?
My basic idea of a qualified moderator would be as following:
Ran the game a good amount of times (Does not need to submit a run weekly, or every single month of course.) Is active with its members within the community. Which is the thing I believe is the most important. The moderator must be willing to listen and talk with the community with issues. And of course, trust worthy.
Now, @AlfredoSalza, I believe you fit the qualifications perfectly. It's very good that you're sitting here now responding to us and listening to what we're saying. I think what most of us is asking is that we're getting input on the things that happen with the rules, categories, etc. When someone asks for something, I believe it should be brought up with community like in the discord (for example, what insom has been doing with the Genesis version) and everyone has the chance to express their thoughts whether they agree or disagree. And not.. just that copy/paste response.
As for your thing about "I also have a hard time telling if someone who started playing this game for less than a year is "more valid" or not to be a mod that someone that knows the TLK community (or more than one speedrun community) for +4 years, as is the case of some of the candidates I mentioned."
This is a fair concern. It's natural to want someone who has been running the game for a longer period to be running things. However, I don't believe newer runners should be less valid than older runners. Why? Because the community should be there to help guide them in the right direction. Again, this goes with the moderators actively talking with their community. We should all have fair game when it comes to discussing these things. Of course we need more people to hop on and discuss this with us to make it known the community is on this, but that'll take time and we'll get there.
Individual levels seems really off to me. I've not really seen that in other games. Some games have like a wiki where they show stuff like that off. We could always pin a forum thread for cool tricks. I would think every game has tricks that are cool that don't make it into any%; certainly all of the other games I watch do.
As far as extension categories, no one is stopping you from running them. Run whatever extension categories you want. Post about them and if other people run them, I bet they'll get added to the board. I don't know why there needs to be a category listed on the board before you speedrun it; this is just a tracking site.
Individual levels: I'm sure a bunch of my gold splits from full game runs are "world record" IL times. I don't think these differ enough from what you would do in a run to warrant separate boards, besides maybe Exile.
New categories: Normal is the most reasonable new category request here. The rest just don't really add anything significant (like all bugs and "exploitless") or are even impossible to beat the game with (in the case of upside down). The game is just a short linear platformer with no upgrades that change the game experience, it's not like Ocarina of Time or a Mega Man X game where each category is played much differently based on upgrades and huge route differences etc.
None of the changes requested here seem like they would make the boards better, just bigger. Which is kind of questionable since the game has so little content to work with anyway.
It's hard to take this seriously. It's all kinda kneejerk and resentful and none of the changes are important enough to make me think "yeah, that's a good idea". Seems a little bit like trying to win some sort of fight just for the sake of winning. Is it just a matter of principle? Maybe, I don't know. I can't really support anything here.
EDIT: Also, I wasn't asked for any opinions on the document before it was posted despite having been taking the game down for years, before there even really was a community. So who is "The Community"?
Here's my thoughts on the subject : https://framabin.org/p/?f24c55f644409e38#o5343dXL239FfRKHu2TYOJk5UFxuDHZ9FoWEK6mNYI8=
I've been "actively" part of this leaderboard since January 2017. I can understand that new runners would like to see some additions to a leaderboard. Things had been pretty straightforward as to what the main/only categories (which in my opinion will remain the most popular). Never had problems with that for a long time. Nothing wrong with having new ideas for categories or board changes. But this seems a little much. Like Aki said, it all feels like quarrel to be won, ever since that whole "Disney Collection" thing. As far as adding IL's to ANY leaderboard is an absolute terrible idea. It would be a nightmare for any mod. Even if you had 100 mods, the alerts would be out of control. Do that on your own, and maybe add a leaderboard on discord. Or make a google docs spreadsheet. I personally don't see the big deal in having categories under Misc. Is it that hard to click a tab? I love this game, and in the 3 - 4 years of speedrunning it, I've never encountered this amount of drama. Maybe if most of you stop whining about the leaderboard and spent that time practicing, you might have better time. Always remember... Hakuna Matata,
