Can we please have the categories separated? Why are HD versions now lumped into the standard releases? They should be separate. Now it seems as though even the emulators are in the same category as original consoles. At minimum they should be separate. So to be competitive now I need to go out and pick up an XboxOne or a PS4? The way things have changes recently does not seem right. At the very minimum the HD re-releases NEED to be separate from the original retail releases. And from there the consoles should be separated as well... otherwise this is not an even playing field.
It's only separate for Weapon Master because of loads. Doesn't make any sense to have them separate for the others as those go with IGT. Sorry and for emulator those are hidden by default.
With the voting the boards were changed to give that even playing field. Before guest characters were lumped together with original characters. However it has been made abundantly clear Link is broken with ring outs for Standard mode. And Spawn being OP for Extra mode averaging 2-4 seconds IGT KOs depending on RNG. That way people can still run the console or character and compete against those who do the same.
Ok... so what you are saying is tough luck about the HD and SD versions of the game? For it to be an even playing field I need to go out and get a new console to play the HD version of the game. Not all versions of the game play the same...
What I am saying is that the AI seems to behave differently from the SD and HD versions. And this seems to be exacerbated at higher difficulties. When playing on arcade on the easiest setting (as per the rules) it is not noticeable, but in the harder settings like Extreme Time Attack it becomes more obvious.
I don't know where you're getting you need HD version to be on an even playing field. As I said each version has their advantages depending on what you want to run. Link is by far the best for nearly everything standard if not then Voldo. Spawn dominates everything Extra due to how OP he is. HD is the fastest for Weapon master, but even then there's a split for HD/SD. Run what you want to run if anything it's been improved to where people who don't have a GC can still compete with normal characters. If they do then only with other Link uses so it's fair play for them.
And there's the addition of ILs for each character so you run the character or characters you like. Because I saw some characters dominate speedruns naturally. Thought it would be nice to have competition for the others.
That is actually something I want to discuss more with others as it's been clear with Baja's runs. Japanese GC does seems to have easier AI or at the least less tries to get a good run. I get you because on NTSC it is the same thing they act harder than Japanese.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Your last paragraph.
"That is actually something I want to discuss more with others as it's been clear with Baja's runs. Japanese GC does seems to have easier AI or at the least less tries to get a good run. I get you because on NTSC it is the same thing they act harder than Japanese."
This seems to be true for the HD and SD versions, with the HD versions having easier AI. It could be contributed to the HD releases being based on the PAL version (I'm not 100% as to the cause) and not the NTSC version like all of my discs are. If this is the case then there is a clear divide between the two and thus not an even playing field.
I'm not sure if HD is in fact easier like the Japanese version for SD. If someone can test this to confirm it would help. Legit research for Japanese SD do full runs like 50 times. In a spreadsheet and log the times to see if there's confirmed consistency of ease.
Because sure we could say it seems easier, but having data to back up the claim could help prove it for sure.
For those interested in more information about the Japanese (GCN) version of SC II, I can clarify the consistency and game difficulty as a speedrun. I can only compare GameCube versions since those are the only ones that'd used. By doing multiple runs of different categories, I can tell you this:
-Arcade *This version is slightly easier than the NTSC (GCN) version. *The consistency to get a good run (sub 1 min IMO) is pretty noticeable. *Getting a top run (sub 50 sec) is still somewhat difficult.
-Weapon Master *The Japanese version is faster due to Chapter 5 Stage 1 being playable with your Selected Character (in my case Voldo) and not starting with two other random characters as in the NTSC version. *When you finished a Chapter in the Japanese Version, you can transition to the next chapter faster on certain chapters (Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 6) *Just like in arcade mode, this is also slightly easier.
This are my experiences while doing runs: *It was a huge boost for my times when I transitioned to the Japanese version; however, I still had to grind good RNG so that I could get all those times. Even if it is easier, RNG is still RNG. *Also, I was getting good times before transitioning to the Japanese version, so my skills, planning, and execution where there already. *I had a harder time getting good runs going when doing runs that were not Arcade due to the fact that there is more RNG involved. This was very hard for me when I was doing Extra Arcade. *This might just be me, but I felt that when I had an amazing beginning of a run the difficulty increase a little bit later on. For example, the CPU gets more aggressive. *The rival battle and Inferno can still be extremely random fights even in Japanese due to bad RNG or as a said before the difficulty increasing. These two fights still kill runs consistently.
My personal Opinion in regards to separating categories: *If we are using RTA and there is advantage/disadvantage because of load times, then the version categories should be separated just so that people have a better time competing. *Since most other runs use IGT, then we can have the versions together. *In regards to making other categories separations. I think we should not do it. It creates more inconsistency on the leader boards if it gets change every now and then. Some runs make it and others don't. *This page has multiple options that allows us to have goals for runs. Like Slevanas stated above, There are Individual-level runs (Character Specific) and the leader boards also show the versions that we use (JAP, NTSC, PAL) and in case you don't have the version that gives you the best options, you can still try to get the best time for the version that you have.
If there are more questions regarding the Japanese (GCN) version just let me know, I might be able to answer them. Also, we still don't know how other versions can compare to the ones that we are using. For example, Japanese HD version.
SC II HD does seem to be slightly easier, but on the other hand especially in Weapon Master I swear they are extremely aggressive compared to SC II SD NTSC.
I've been trying to find out what could work for the categories to make it simple. But as I and several people stated it's so inefficient in setting up variables. The biggest issue is the guests problem and the fact Link can't played in HD thus you can't have one variable for all categories. Bringing up the site issue you have to create a variable for each category that Link can play in. Because there's no way to select which categories a variable can be it's either all of them or not. Which is pretty poor design if you ask me.
Proposed categories if we could have a better variable system. Yes there's more categories, but then there wouldn't be two variables and so much clicking involved. We could also move Arcade Extreme, All Characters, and HD Weapon Master 200% to Category Extensions. I want to find a clean and simple boards to navigate. Having two variables for a category is just not great. Arcade Extra Arcade Time Attack Time Attack Alt Extra Time Attack Extra Time Attack Alt Weapon Master Base Link Spawn Heihachi Weapon Master NG+ Variable: Base Link Spawn Heihachi
HD Weapon Master HD Weapon Master NG+ Variable: Base Spawn Heihachi
Misc Time Attack Extreme Extra Time Attack Extreme Team Battle Extra Team Battle Survival Extra Survival Variable: Base Link Spawn Heihachi
SC II Category Extensions Arcade Extreme Variable: Base Link Spawn Heihachi
HD Weapon Master 200% Variable: Base Spawn Heihachi
All Characters Variable: SD HD GC XB PS
Definitely like the current leader board, looks cleaner. Also, I agree with moving Extreme categories in the misc section because not a lot of people run those categories, and they also have the worst RNG, which makes them less consistent to run. Hopefully other people agree with this. Thanks to all the moderators in the SC II Speedrun page.
Thanks, I'm hoping we get that variable update so we can split the guests up that way people can compete on their platform or base. I don't know how to get updates on when they do new ones. But hopefully we get it soon.
Based on everything I have read here I am going to need to get a JAP SoulCalibur2 disc as well as a console to play it on if I am going to run anything Baja646 is running. He stated himself that the AI seems to be easier. And even though the AI is easier on the JAP region because of RNG we are not separating the consoles? And forget about splitting HD and SD versions of the game except for weapon master because of load times. Forget about differences in how the AI behaves. Honestly it seems like trying to lump everything together is creating more problems and an uneven playing field. The leader boards should be split by console version. Period. Gamecube as one, OG Xbox as another PS2 as another, and HD versions as another. Lastly there could be an OVERALL board that combines all of the runs. That is an even playing field. Anything less than that is not.
Well I got a 29 minute run for Weapon Master NG SD and so yeah it may be easier on JAP. But I was playing on NTSC so the runs are beatable without JAP. Separating guests and console region is too much selecting for variables. Especially with Time Attack where it would have three variables.
I agree with separating by console, however did a voting and people voted for keeping it all in one board. Or at the very least have Soulcalibur II Category Extensions be the one for guests. Which I like that way it's one page, but all guests in one place instead of different pages. Maybe even move HD Weapon Master runs there and SC II only have SD versions. That may it's not only a mix of guests, but also HD.
Waiting for an update to the variable system tho to selecting which categories it can apply to. Otherwise it's a nightmare to do it.
I am going over all of the leader boards for SC2 and if you look at every category over 90% of the top 3's are either HD or JAP Gamecube runs. That says something. Oh and you have a run from 2 months ago that is somehow type XB and done on the GCN platform (EX Time Attack Alternative).
Also... are the HD versions emulation? If not they are redone fore the new console and thus not the same game. If so, they are emulated and should not be combined with runs done on authentic original hardware/software.
I'm thinking this could be done. SC II will be original characters, but with an NTSC and JAP/PAL variable. SC II CE will be guest characters Link, Spawn, and Heihachi and the variable.
Not sure about emulated.
This is just my personal opinion, but I still think that the current leader-board should stay.
Let's talk about the first problem, HD vs SD. From what I can tell, the HD version is just a remastered version. Some people have mentioned that the HD version is based on the PAL SD version. The biggest actual difference is the loading times, which are only useful for Weapon Master. The current leader-board already addresses that by having Weapon Master SD and Weapon Master HD separated.
The Second problem is that of the AI difference between versions. As we already know, NTSC is the hardest one, then we have the PAL/HD versions with an easier AI than NTSC, and finally JAP version with the easiest AI. Now, the actual problem is not the difference between versions, but the accessibility of them. Let me tell you this, if you have a Wii, Xbox 360, PS3, or Xbox One, then you can have a good version to speedrun this game. Obviously, Xbox 360, PS3, and Xbox One have the HD version available, which costs $20. Now if you have a Wii, then you only need to MOD the Wii so that it can be Region Free. (There are a lot of tutorials for that on YouTube, so don't ask me how to do it) A thing to note for those who would say something along the lines of "Baja, you runs should not be counted because you are using a MODed Wii." All Wiis have all Versions available to them inside the console; however, Nintendo blocks each version depending on your region. For Example. American Wiis already have NTSC, PAL, and JAP coded in the console, but only NTSC is usable because the other two are blocked. Still there but blocked. Once you have a Region Free Wii, then you only need to buy a copy of SC II JAP (GCN), which you can get on ebay for around $20. (This price could be more or less)
Finally, the biggest issue that I see here is the so call "Honestly it seems like trying to lump everything together is creating more problems and an uneven playing field." (@GainingGround) I think the main problem lies on the "uneven playing field" stuff. This opinion is coming from watching other communities. Other communities make the best/fastest version the standard to compete. Of course not everyone has them, but they still speedrun in whatever version they have available. Those communities still update the leader-boards with all versions so that speedrunners can compare their time progress to that of other people. with that in mind, it is completely optional for a speedrunner to put the time and money in order to compete at the highest level. I also think that if you are using a bad version and you see yourself being held down by it, then it is your decision whether or not you move to the best version. So pretty much what I'm trying to say here is that the playing field is already even since the best versions are already at the top of the leader-boards and if you want to compete at that level then you have to move to the best version.
To conclude, I just want to give an example of the leader-board of two months ago for Arcade Mode. I was 3 on the leader-board with NTSC (GCN) time of 47s 560ms. RickyBoy_EA96 was first with JAP (GCN) time of 46s 950ms and Tigger77 was second with PAL (PS3) time of 47s 480ms. At that time I was competing against the highest level available with the worst version. The best versions for SC II only give you more consistency to get a good run; however, you still need to put the time to get the run that you want. There's still a possibility that a bad version can get WR on any category since I almost did at that time and other people did it before when the runs were getting more optimized a few years ago.
PS. Hope this makes sense because it took me way too long to write this and I'm pretty sure I was all over the place. Also, this is just my opinion, thanks.
@Slevanas the console versions need to be separated as do the HD version from the SD versions. The way I see it and the way it makes the most sense is to have a category for each console. OG Xbox on one, Gamecube on another, PS2 on another, and HD on another (filters can be added in those consoles for NTSC, JAP, and PAL). Then there can be an OVERALL category that puts all the runs on one place (that would be the place for your "guest" runs)There is no need for a "guest" category on the original consoles as the characters that are specific to the console can only be run on that console. If Link is fastest on the GC then fine... everyone running a GC has access to that fighter. Same with Spawn and Heihachi on their respective systems. Moving categories that aren't run as much to a MISC complicates and hides things. Extreme time attack should be next to the other time attack not in a filter that has other random misc runs (not done as much as more popular ones) lumped together. Again I point to the leader boards. Look at all of the top times. If I am going to compete in ANY category I need a JAP system and disc.
@Baja646 first point/problem, there is a clear difference between the SD and HD versions AI. Put the " you gotta grind RNG" defense aside and look at the leader boards. as I stated before over 90% of the top times are done on HD remasters or JAP Gamecubes. That says something about the difficulty involved. Slevanas even said there seems to be difference between HD and SD with SD being harder and HD being easier. Saying that the main difference is load times is discrediting the data we have at hand and what we are seeing on the leader boards. This difference applies to more than weapon master.
Second point/problem, do I need to even address this? You say that there is a difference between the versions (I agree)... then separate them. PEROID! Make ONE additional category (call it OVERALL) that has all of the consoles and versions combined. It is that simple.
Third point/problem. We seem to all agree that there is a difference in the versions. This is not an even playing field. Period! The way that seems to make things the most FAIR is what I have described above. Putting everything on the same page is NOT an even playing field. The changes that have been made recently OVERWHELMINGLY benefit HD and JAP version runners. Again look at the leader boards.
Conclusion. Your argument that you still need to grind out RNG for a good run is invalid as it applies to all versions of the game. Of course anyone is going to have to put in the time for a good run. I am speaking on the DIFFERENCES between the versions. Pointing out similarities is not addressing the problem at hand. RNG is something that is going to have to be dealt with by EVERY runner regardless of the version they are running. How the AI responds (i.e guard impacts, blocking, sidestepping, etc.) is ENTIRELY dependent on the version of the game. And should be treated accordingly.
You can also think about it this way. If I am on an OG Xbox, will I have to fight Link? No of course not. The same is true for the other versions. A GC player will never have to deal with a Spawn or a Heihachi. That is a different play through and should be treated as such. As I stated there should be an OVERALL category that combines all of the consoles together. Outside of that the versions need to be separate. Otherwise you might as well say you need a JAP disc and console to get a good time.
Okay GainingGround the people who did vote on the separating into pages for the consoles said no to that.
I looked at the top five runs and here's the data ultimately it's even
Arcade JAP/PAL/HD - 4 NTSC - 1
Extra Arcade JAP/PAL/HD - 2 NTSC - 3
Time Attack Overall JAP/PAL/HD - 7 NTSC - 8
Extra Time Attack Overall JAP/PAL/HD - 8 NTSC - 7
Weapon Master Overall JAP/PAL - 3 NTSC - 3
Team Battle Overall JAP/PAL/HD - 4 NTSC - 6
Survival JAP/PAL/HD - 5 NTSC - 3
Total Wins JAP/PAL/HD - 3 NTSC - 3
So that we are both on the same page I would like to clarify... I was looking at top 3 and not top 5.
