A controversial topic since the beginning... They we're discussed through the discord where we talked about what should and shouldn't be allowed, it turned into a debate on the developers intended path/no clips/random opinions. My main objection to current rule set is how convoluted it is and I believe that's one of the main reasons there's no active runners. These rules would need to be different enough to warrant an overhaul but everyone I've talked to previously including the current WR holder (before the stuff) has indicated they would be up for a change up.
Option 1 - Adjust Current Rules We'll have a another discussion and try come up with a more agreeable and in my opinion the most important thing a more 'friendly' run without so many reset points. The biggest issue people seem to have is the ledge swiping, I think if we take that rule out but still point out banned functions such as boulder skip it would create more enjoyable runs.
Option 2 (My preferred choice for simplicity) - New category "No Major Clips" (My original post was to say change the main ruleset simply to this, which I'd also be for.) RULES
- No floor clips in Exile
- No clip in Be Prepared
I'm still all in for adjusting the rules cause they're always seemed off to me. That's the main reason I lost my interest quickly. Cause I never understood why we disallowed "health bug jump" for not being the intended path but "Pride Rock fire skip" was just fine although you could apply the same reasoning there.
So, I just throw my proposal in here as well.
Keep it as close to a casual run as possible (imo). In short:
- allow hyena manip
- allow fire manip
- allow swipes (except boulder SKIP)
- rest prohibited
That's easy to remember and might be the closest we come to a casual first time playthrough. Hyena and fire manip allowed because it's difficult to determine if something happend because of an intentional step or not. Especially fire spawns are somewhat easy to avoid that's it often no coincidence if it happens. Same with swipes to avoid a tedious "I just swiped at the vines/monkey" debate. Makes it easier for mods and runners. I just want to avoid difficult discussions like in sports for example NFL (catch/no catch) or soccer (handball) with that.
Or longer version, don't do:
- health bug jump
- super jump/giraffe launch
- I don't care about bone wall tbh
- Exile clips
- Hakuna is fine (it's all pathing, quickness and timing)
- spawner/boulder skips. Ledges are fine I think (up to debate)
- Be Prepared skip
- Return is fine (hyena ledge kill up to debate. I mean, just jump swipe, take the hit and kill him on top)
- Scar Skip, fire shortcut (it's a skip)
Boom, there you have it. I'm also fine if we just create a "no major glitch" (lose rules) and "No Exploits" (with tight rules) for the board.
Also, however the decision will end up, I will contribute runs to this category. But hopefully the rules are more comprehensible in the end.
Always agreed the ruleset was a mess for sure.
I’m totally for revamping this category. Right now I lean more towards no major clips category more than anything, but that’s a discussion for another time. Right now I think we just could use a general agreement that this category needs to have something done with it.
The category needs a revamp. I’m wanting to get into this category but waiting on the results of whether there is or isn’t a revamp.
My opinion on the health bug jump, is if you allow the final jump shortcut then should be able to do the health bug jump as you jan doa normal simba high jump to get the ledge. I think either both be allowed or both be disallowed.
I’m in agreement with what bronkel said. Look forward to what others think and put forward.
Agree that the rules need revamped. And I guess we should look at what the goals are with this category. Are we going for a "first time" feel, or a "no level skipping" run.
Depending on what we're looking for, the rule set will look pretty different.
From a "first time" feel, there would be a lot more banned since it's unlikely that a first time player would stumble into it. Something like the health bug jump I would think would be banned in this category, since the jump is nearly pixel perfect, and unlikely to be found accidentally.
Just thinking off the top of my head, the banned list would look like this from a "first time" perspective:
Pridelands:
- Health Bug Jump
Just Can't Wait:
- Super Jump
Graveyard:
- Nothing
Stampede:
- Nothing
Exile:
- All level clips
Hakuna:
- Waterfall skip
Destiny:
- Cheetah spawners
- Boulder skip
Be Prepared:
- Level skip
Return:
- Nothing
Pride Rock:
- Scar skips
Probably not an all inclusive list, but I would start here.
With a "no level skips" the list would get a much shorter, mostly looking at Exile and Be Prepared.
IMO, Swipe jumping and damage boosting are common enough game play mechanics that they should always be allowed.
I think when the idea for this category was first being discussed, it started as more of "no skips like wall/floor clips", then "no boulder skip because that saves a bunch of time", then "then no rafiki gate skipping because thats also clipping" until eventually it got out of hand and became the current "how the developer's intended" set of rules. It seems like we can all agree that the rules need a lot of trimming to make it more appealing.
In my opinion, I'd be happy with stripping it all the way down to not allowing any clips that allow you to skip sections of levels. That would be the clips in Exile and the big clip in Be Prepared. Boulder Skip also allows you to skip a part of the level, but its also just carefully timed swiping. I would allow it, but I can certainly see keeping it banned since there is a fair argument either way. Skipping the rafiki gates in Destiny is also tricky, but in the reverse way. They do not skip a section of the level, but they are clips. Again, I can see the argument either way.
Personally I would draw the line there, because then it starts to become a slippery slope of becoming convoluted all over again.
PlayingWithDick also brings up the interesting idea of making a no major clips category while keeping something similar to the current exploitless category (just trimmed up a little). I feel like that starts becoming an issue of too many categories, but if people prefer having the extra categories then so be it.
Alright, good discussions took place here and good ideas tossed around that it looks like we can mostly, if not all, agree upon for the No Exploits category. I like a lot of the ideas I see getting proposed for the general rules to revamp the category.
The rules definitely need some trimming and I believe the "intended route" idea just can not exist as the sole idea behind this category's rules, as it is too controversial what was or was not intended.
I would like to apologize for this categories poor rule set. I took part in creating the rules for it and I did not look beyond what I saw when thinking about how it would work or if it would make complete sense on why each rule was a part of the category. I've learned a lesson during this and will promise to make an effort to not allow it to happen again to the best of my ability.
As pointed out by @8BitsOfJoy, the rules for this category can start to become a slippery slope if we try to restrict too much so the rules that make sense for this category will remain or be implemented and what's left will be pruned.
We have another decision to make so it's time for another poll. (I know we've had so many lately but we're almost done, according to the current state of the forums.): https://forms.gle/DvzgkDrajBZ718vH6
We can take it further in this forum post once we get a result on what the category(s) will be, so we can all make sure we're on the same page. Let's not rush into changes with this but let's make sure we're moving forward in the right direction. So far, I have to say, you're all doing fantastic with how attractive the ideas are to revamp / reconstruct the rules for this category.
Sounds good. I'm sure we could come to up with a different rule-set if we worked on it but I did a test run of No Major Clips (dying in be prepared and quitting) and not having to worry about the littler things did make it go smoothly. If NMC does pass, I don't think having No exploits as strict as it currently is would be as bad of a thing. Just gives the option of playing 'be prepared' in a similar run to any% or playing the whole game in more restrictive way.
I hoped for an answer with more informational character about the next step in this matter. A more constructive one. Thought, a more provocative approach would do the trick after the first "bump".
It's a poorly made category which we all agree on and now it's basically dead since no action is happening in renewing it cause there is no point in running it when it's very likely going to change.
A week is more than enough for a poll. It's now 2+ weeks, I think we can at least attempt to initiate the next step. I might not have the needed patience that is required but I think stalling isn't bringing us forward.
So, not a huge amount of votes but the majority of it (66,7%) voted for: "Keep the current No Exploits category with revamped rules and implement the proposed No Major Clips/Glitches categories as another category."
And to be more constructive myself, as a start I suggest we work on implementing the NMC category, because that's seems like a rather simple task now. Revamping the current No Exploit is something we admittedly don't do in a few days, so let's begin with the seemingly much easier part.
Our current task has started, which was to begin to contact those on the board to notify what was happening with their runs. The next step was going to be getting rid of the current no exploits and implementing the NMC category. I will ensure this gets done this week.
The “No Exploits” category will be removed on Sunday, September 12th. If you would like to archive anything, please do so between now and that date. Thanks!
Hi everyone, just wanted to let you guys know I will get the No Major Clips category rolling this week.
