impossible goomba in bits :/ also idk the category just sounds p rng heavy and annoying i could be wrong though
Any progress on this? Myself and several others are interested and putting routes together. We want to make this happen!
Here are some of my thoughts as far as rules go for this category, anyone who is interested in this category please provide input:
-Kill all Goombas in the game and then beat the game. -Mystery Goomba in BitS is omitted (can't do anything about that, also the All Coins CE omits an "impossible coin"). -Since this is similar to other 16 star categories, LBLJ is allowed, SBLJ is banned, etc. -Timing starts from power on (or reset) and ends when the big star is collected at the end of the game (the first frame that the star bursts into dust). The final Goombas in BitS are literally right in front of the Bowser 3 entrance, so might as well finish the game.
We need community input on the following:
-What counts as a successful "Goomba kill". Does a coin have to come out of a Goomba? If so, does punching a goomba off stage and not seeing the coin count? -Tiny Goombas in THI are especially tricky. If a tiny Goomba touches Mario, they “poof” and disappear without spawning a coin. Does this count? -Sometimes Goombas fall off a stage on their own. Apparently, they despawn at the bottom of the stage. This could be considered a Goomba “death” instead of a Goomba “kill”. Do Goomba deaths count? -If you die without killing all the Goombas in a stage, should you be required to kill all the Goombas again, or be allowed to pick up where you left off?
Any thoughts? Other areas of concern?
Got a decent attempt in. I'm sure others will find better alternatives and optimizations but this is what we've got so far. I'm excited to see what the community will do with this!
Also, here is a document with a little more info for those interested in this Category. Also includes a link to the LiveSplit file for this route. https://docs.google.com/document/d/192tXZ16aqXZX6S8nWHmsxxEEfp3F8VixeQuOZvqXI3g/edit?usp=sharing
For the cause! Completely based off other's routes so default to SaySurprise's vid if you are looking for routing ideas!
Ello boys!
I went through the trouble and made a list off all the goombas that are available to kill in the game.
I would suggest that anything that "kills" a goomba is permited for use. f.e. punching little goombas off in THI. Additionally I would say that if there is reason to believe that a goomba is dead it counts as dead. Such as a goomba walking off the stage.
Here is the list of locations for goomba%: BOB: 11 G's:
- Bridge: 2
- Next to mini Kooper: 3
- Behind mini Kooper: 3
- Red Coin star spawn: 3
JRB: 3G's In the cave: 3
BiDW: 6G's
- Post elevcator: 3
- Right behind moving platforms: 1
- Endingplatform: 2
SSL: 12G's
- Outside: 3
- Groundfloor: 6 second floor: 3
BitFS: 3 G's
- Literally cant miss em 3
THIT: 10 G's
- start: 1
- Ball machine 2
- next to minikooper (on grass) 1
- Around pink bob omb 4
- On Ball roll out 2
- Before entry wiggler cave 1
THIH: 11 G's -start 3
- to the canon 1
- along the way up 2
- by the gardens 2 (the grass with the fence) -Above big ball machine 1
TTM: 9 G's -start 3
- Next to the waterfall 3
- Scaling the mountain 3
SL: 3 G's
- in the igloo
RR: 1 G
- On the way to swining in the breeze 1
BitS: 7 G's
- On the first U-turn 2 -Up the long pole 2
- The three muskateers 3
Got a new PB of over 3 minutes! 29:33! Love Running this Cat.
Just an update, we currently have 8 runs by 8 different individuals and several others have expressed interest in the category.
Wanted to share this document again for anyone interested; it has everything you need to know about Goomba% and even has a leaderboard at the bottom: https://docs.google.com/document/d/192tXZ16aqXZX6S8nWHmsxxEEfp3F8VixeQuOZvqXI3g/edit?usp=sharing
My opinions: Category name: Kill all Goombas Rules: Kill all listed Goombas and complete the game by collecting Bowser's Star, but don't respawn any Goombas unless you kill all of them again.
There is no way (known at the moment) to kill off the Mystery Goomba, but if you are allowed to use the death barrier to kill off Goombas, you don't have to take care of it and you can use it as a tool, too. So, if you lure a Goomba into the death barrier, it counts as killed.
If you die without killing all Goombas, you have to re-renter the stage and you'll respawn the Goombas, so you have to kill them again. Why? Imagine, Mario is some kind of pest exterminator and wants each stage to be clear. In my opinion, it is too silly to see runs, where Mario just passes by some Goombas just because he killed the the last time. That wouldn't be satisfying enough.
Timing starts from reset like the other main categories.
Answering SaySurprise's questions: Q: What counts as a successful "Goomba kill"? A: Interacting directly or indirectly with a Goomba in a way that it is impossible for it to survive: Using the Death Barrier intentional or not, punching, kicking and so on. There is no need to witness the death, since it is nearly impossible for a player to see the Mystery Goomba despawning and I just don't want to exclude him.
Q: Tiny Goombas in THI are especially tricky. If a tiny Goomba touches Mario, they “poof” and disappear without spawning a coin. Does this count? A: Yes.
Q: Sometimes Goombas fall off a stage on their own. Apparently, they despawn at the bottom of the stage. This could be considered a Goomba “death” instead of a Goomba “kill”. Do Goomba deaths count? A: Yes, if you witness that jumping off the edge
Q: If you die without killing all the Goombas in a stage, should you be required to kill all the Goombas again, or be allowed to pick up where you left off? A: Yes, you need to kill all again.
My question: Allowing to die after killing all Goombas or do you need to collect a Star?
So I believe after discussion with some other people a most optimal route has been developed!
LBLJ to DW (1) BOB (2) WF (5) cless, owl less, wild blue JRB (6) chests SSL (9) pless, top of pyramid, talon LLL (12) reds, sidehop, bully HMC (15) toad, emergency exit, triple box jump Then move on to DDD, FS and the upstairs.
There was some discussion on what the slowest star to remove would be but another option would be Rolling Rocks in HMC if that is faster than one of the stars on the list.
It potentially could be faster to remove talon from the list and then Pless into secrets, drop down and kill all the goombas, then collect the secrets star. That would remove the need to go back into SSL just to to kill goombas then die.
I would love to hear any other optimizations anyone has but after sitting and thinking about this is what I have come up with so far!
I'm not able to do this route myself but I would love to see someone attempt it and see what kind of time they can pull out!
Brush I was going over the route for an LBLJ version myself and I think that Dorrie would be faster than Bully; intermediate and advanced Dorrie are faster than expert Bully. Otherwise I came to the same set of stars. Though in practice, the longjump to Toad and routing back in may lose an arbitrarily small amount of time.
@HiiragiTia Thank you for your input! I agree with everything you said.
I personally don't care what the category is called, but if we are counting Goomba "deaths", then Mario technically isn't "killing" all Goombas.
I agree we should require re-killing all Goombas if Mario dies without killing all of them within a stage. The job doesn't feel "complete" otherwise and as you said, it would be weird to simply pass by Goombas.
I like your thoughts on using the death barrier as a tool. That solves the Mystery Goomba issue pretty nicely.
Regarding my question about Goombas falling off the stage on their own, you mentioned it should count as long as the player witnesses the fall. I haven't seen any instances where a Goomba falls off stage out of the players field of vision, but following the death barrier rule it seems it would still count even if it is not witnessed by the player (similar to the Mystery Goomba, although I don't think the Mystery Goomba is falling off the stage, rather spawning off stage). This still feels like a grey area because there is no efficient way for a player to tell if a Goomba has actually fallen off the stage on their own in the case that they don't come across a Goomba in a spot they are supposed to be (but I imagine such a case would be very rare, if possible at all, we just don't know yet).
Regarding your question, "Allowing to die after killing all Goombas or do you need to collect a Star?" I'd say dying is allowed. The All Coins CE requires star collection after collecting all coins within a stage because that saves the coin collection count into an actual value to the game file (seen as a high score). As far as I am aware, the game does not store kill counts (specifically Goomba kill counts in this case) regardless of whether or not the player collects a star. For this reason I do not think star collection should be required.
@AirBrush45, @Falling_Tacos I'm glad you guys are crafting an LBLJ route! I knew a faster route would show up soon, and I'm excited to see someone shave a minute or two (or more) off the run!
@SaySurprise The difference between "all deaths" and "kill all"? BOB has 11 Goombas, so with "all deaths" it means that you only have to kill Goombas 11 times, regardless if you clone them or respawn them (after re-entering). With "kill all" you even cancel out the possibity to clone Goombas, since they won't despawn after jumping on them. And yes, I don't see anybody wanna clone Goombas here, but just in case.
Star collection needed? Hmm... It is just more satisfying to see Mario killing all Goombas and standing tall after exiting a stage rather than seeing him laying on the floor, bonking his head. It also provides an opportunity to get creative with the routing
Witnessing the death of a Goomba is NOT required, you misunderstood me. You barely can see the Mystery Goomba on that one frame, so it isn't needed in stages like THI either. The Goomba may jump into the death barrier while you turn your back on him, when you see him running to the egde. In that case, Mario can be sure, that he not just used some magic powers to simply turn invisible.
Banning SLBJ? Hmm... I don't like the idea of banning highly skill based strategies. But I know why you want to exclude it, so if you do it, add the ban for entering a PU as well, just in case.
The Goomba Cloning Problem: Goomba cloning isn't necessarily a problem since setting it up is super complicated, pretty much TAS only stuff, and it'd just be faster to kill the goombas even if someone DID want to clone them - unless I'm unaware of an easier process involving a koopa shell, bob-omb SRM is incredibly difficult/complex and would not be worth it considering that it would take longer to set up one goomba than to run and stomp all 11 in Bob-Omb Battlefield, for example.
Death Warps: Death warps are a valid strat - this isn't a casual playthrough, and it doesn't matter what is the most satisfying way to "see Mario." What matters is killing goombas in the most efficient way possible, and the death warp scenario actually makes endgame really interesting since you generally have to grab an extra life on the current route, and thus if someone could change routing slightly, they would end up with enough lives to not have to worry about the final death warp causing game over, for example.
SBLJ: I imagine banning SBLJ is a measure to prevent the category from being broken in ways that it becomes unfun to run. It's also a precedent set in other Category Extensions, so calling this into question would require you call into question all CEs that ban SBLJ.
@HiiragiTia I just meant, if we are allowing Goomba "deaths", calling the category "Kill all Goombas" seems inconsistent. But again, I personally don't care what the category is called. I don't think cloning will be an issue.
@Falling_Tacos makes some good points. I don't think the point is for it to be satisfying in a visual sense. I feel that the unique movement, and doing such movement in the quickest/most efficient way possible is the intent of most speedruns. I feel like star collections does not serve a significant purpose in this category, other than allowing us to beat the game.
But this is great! This is exactly why we need community input, and I appreciate all of yours! this is how we refine the category and make it happen!
We now have a Discord server for CEs! Come join us if you have an interest in them.
