Hello to all, I just noticed the current "world record" of this game from New Game involves enemies despawning. This is wrong because this bug only exists in the game when you have the Style Switcher mod installed in the stand-alone PC version. Therefore, any run where this occurs should be instantly disqualified. It cannot be a legitimate speedrun as the bug is not present in the game otherwise.
Is there's any proof that despawning doesn't really exist in non-modded 3SE? afaik it's super random and there's no real way to manipulate the way enemies are getting despawned.
upd: I remember we had some discussion that you have to make some adjustments to the SS config file, so you won't have 3 jumps as SLDK Dante in HoH runs, maybe it's something inside triggers that effect?
@Mekarazium I've been playing DMC3 since Dante's Awakening came out in 2005. I've played every single version of the game. No, enemies have never despawned until the Style Switcher mod.
@SaiyanGaming Nothing wrong with the mod itself, it's clearly designed for fun. Most players don't bother doing runs of the game because it's not that interesting, mod or no.
tbh, i had a bunch of ideas how to rework both 3se and 4se lb's, but most of the ideas i've had are being destroyed upon:"nobody runs the game anyways" argument. atm , i'm actually being forced to tell them:"hurr durr try steam(1.0.3) w/ SS, if you want to run the game", just because how absurd sound glitches can be sometimes.
in example, we could rework the lbs around the hdc release, and divide the lbs around the version of the game (so basically unmodded, ss, hdc), since theres a really big amount of peeps that came EXACTLY after HDC came in.
i'm not really a mod of 3SE, but i think i still take the responsibility over these two boards, and i can't rework them single-handedly for various reasons, one of them being my own demand for the community to lead the way the game goes. community wants better lb's, while i want more people to jump in.
talk to @Simoteus and @PvtCb about the SS. personally, i would like to do smth with already super cluttered table to make it more... appealing to the new peeps and make it better overall. also, afaik Simoteus checks Discord more, so it might be a good idea to ask him there: https://discord.gg/GxqhqW9
I think you should absolutely separate runs that use the Style Switcher mod, regardless of actually using any settings in it, because it is the cause of enemies despawning and because it also fixes a lot of performance issues with the standalone PC version. As for the current SS version for the HDC, it has its own glitches but it's not a finished version just yet. The HDC version of the game is much more stable so it should also get its own (unmodded) category.
Or just run the game on PS2 hardware or PCSX2 emulator.
Interesting point indeed for despawns. I've always felt it was a bit weird that a mod was allowed / encouraged, but I can't imagine it was with the intent to keep a bug it introduced. IIRC PS2 load times are abysmal. I personally feel like I'd stick to HDC. It's kinda what got me back into the game in general and is just so convenient. Using IGT would make load times a non issue, but probably makes tracking the time a bigger pain.
IMO a modded category is fine, but we should probably update our welcome post verbiage if we disallow style switcher from the "vanilla" category.
bioshock uses HRH mod to cut off the 4% rng from the run, thats literally the most "famous" example of using a mod to fix the game.
I was always under the impression that the 2006 PC port came out-of-the-box with the despawn glitch, but after testing this out, it seems the despawns only happen with StyleSwitcher installed. I tried several times without SS and got none, and the first attempt with SS, I got a despawn. However, despawns are out of control of the player and the port is practically unplayable unmodded for anyone who plays with a gamepad, so simply invalidating a run due to this random occurence is inane. Most of the runs on the board are with the 2006 version. It is also the fastest version regardless of despawns.
Now after thinking about this and discussing with PvtCb, I will set up a new thread with a poll for the community to vote on with two options: No 1: Put the platforms (PS2/PS3/Xbox360/PS4/XboxOne/PC2006/PC2018) as sub-categories for the difficulties, so the platforms will have their own rankings instead of being mixed with the others, making it more fair since you don't have to have a specific version to go fast. This will also solve the the issue with despawns, as runs with the 2006 version will still allow the use of SS and thus despawns will not invalidate the runs.
No 2: Put the use of StyleSwitcher as a variable, just like "costume" or "turbo on/off" are. This does not differentiate by platforms, simply adds the ability to filter the runs by showing those with or without StyleSwitcher.
@Simoteus: How can despawns be out of the control of the player if it requires the installation of the mod? I have nothing against using the mod as a patch for the performance issues well documented with the game, but my argument is: if a speedrun includes despawning enemies -- which is impossible in ANY version of the game -- then the speedrun shouldn't be accepted as legit. Essentially, the speedrunner's saving time via cheating, doesn't matter if it's out of their control, you pretty much expect that enemies will despawn with the mod installed. You may as well press F2 and one-shot enemies yourself, in that case. It is absolutely under the player's control. If enemies despawn, which you should know is impossible without the mod installed, then reset the run.
I also agree on placing those filters.
Running the game with the fear of having the run being rejected instantly if a despawn occurs is kind of ridiculous. If we simply banned the use of StyleSwitcher because it CAN cause despawns, it would effectively render the fastest version of the game unplayable for anyone who isn't fine with playing with keyboard, abysmal resolution and huge drops in FPS. It would also invalidate most runs on this board regardless of whether they had despawns or not. For a long time, the 2006 PC version was the go-to version for runners, but with the release of the HD collection on PC and PS4/Xbone it has become only desireable for runners. But banning StyleSwitcher would be like telling most runners to get the HD collection or some other version to compete. Also my Dante NG Normal run can easily be beaten with a run that doesn't have despawns. Nobody running with SS has ever relied on getting despawns.
If the no. 1 option in the poll ends up winning, it means all platforms will be ranked separately, so it doesn't even matter for most people that the 2006 PC version users would have StyleSwitcher and thus possible despawns.
So invalidating runs due to cheating is kind of ridiculous because it would affect a lot of runs? Why was it even acceptable to allow this bug in speedrunning in the first place? Do you honestly mean to tell me that, prior to playing DMC3SE with the mod, you had no idea this bug never existed in the game? Don't you think that if the game had been released with this bug back in 2006 -- no, 2005, on PS2 -- it'd be well documented by now?
No, it's not kind of ridiculous at all, what's ridiculous is that speedruns are now being accepted with cheating. Because that's what it is. The Style Switcher didn't even exist in 2006, it only surfaced like 4-5 years ago. If what you're saying is true about the PC version being the go-to choice for speedrunning, then people have been dealing with fps drops and poor controller support for much longer than not -- and I did play this version at the time, just as I played every other version of the game.
And again, I'm not saying you should ban the Style Switcher, you should ban runs with despawning enemies because it's essentially cheating. You even said "Nobody running with SS has ever relied on getting despawns" but you seem unwilling to ban runs that include it. Could it be because you do rely on despawns to get your records? This just sounds dishonest to me. I heard from someone I trust who's watched your streams that you will deliberately reset runs on mission 1 or 2 because you didn't get despawning enemies. Sounds like you're relying on this bug quite a lot.
I first played this game in 2012 with the original HD collection on PS3. I didn't beat the game and only came back to it in 2016 with the 2006 PC version. I also played the version without SS for a fraction of the time I have played with the mod (understandably due to the port's flaws). This is why I never knew that despawning wasn't a glitch of the version. And like I said, since the port is practically unplayable for most people without the mod, not many people have run without SS installed. We allow disabling the music with SS as well due to it causing the game to lag. I am lucky enough that my game runs very well with music on, but some simply get bad performance. Allowing SS is a practical decision so people can run a mostly-functional game instead of not running at all. The despawns are an unfortunate side effect.
If you bothered watching my Dante NG Normal 1:06:21 past mission 1, you'd see I don't despawn enemies all the time getting crazy timesaves. I also don't reset in M1 because I don't get despawns, but because I perform badly or the game is unfavorable to me. To go fast, you want S-ranks from M1 and M2 to get Stinger 2 at the start of M3. If you get hit once in M1, you lose it, unless you spend a lot of time getting high style (and thus high orb count). M2 is much more lenient, but also requires you to be proficient. I can lose a lot of time easily especially in M1 by not doing what I'm supposed to do. Even simple things like not finishing an enemy with a certain attack can make the next wave spawn much slower. Since despawned enemies do not drop orbs, they can also cause a lower-than-desired orb count. I have never relied on getting despawns, and have thought that it would be very unpleasant if I or anyone ever got a really good run with something like the M2 Vanguard despawn, since that would discourage people from running.
tl;dr, Alexx has a very big experience with the series(he's doing mods for both 3 and 4, based on his yt) and just pointed the differences of the versions. Thank you for assisting us.
Not sure why both of you have to argue about the same things, it's obvious that both of us want(?) to make the community better. Some of us have more knowledge about the things other peeps ignore/don't know. It's a common "rule" to avoid cheating in the runs, and in the really small amount of games, where cheating is actually allowed (ie. Bioshock Infinite w/ HRH Mod, that eliminates 2% drop chance mid-run), these runs are just going towards another category. With certain setups, you can control the despawns and that's the problem, since imo, if you know a way to despawn one enemy and (atleast) one boss, you might want to spend more time to learn how much things you can despawn. Which, essentially, makes all other players stand at uneven ground.
There's no real way to tell where exactly cheating starts and ends, given the fact despawning wasn't in the original (3:DA) or SE games. Both of you having good points that i'm lazy to point out (good morning btw), but the fact remains the same - lb rework has to be done.
Stop arguing about the various reasons and just accept that both of you (i guess) learned something in the past 24 hours.
@Simoteus Thanks for explaining this to me.
@wiekds Yes, enemy despawns save time, obviously, and that's exactly the point. This bug simply does not exist in any version of the game without the mod. Therefore any time saved from despawns is a metric that shouldn't exist in the game's meta. The mod is simply bugged and if it didn't have this bug, I wouldn't be raising an issue with speedrunners.
@Mekarazium Yes, I'm all for having different categories, I only wonder why they weren't in place the moment the despawning was discovered. I'm baffled nobody realized it due to the mod.
Personally, nobody really thought it's something about the Style Switcher, since uh... nobody really runs the game except for Simoteus. I ran HoH categories (w/o SS), and there was no real way to notice the despawning problem, while casually watching the WR run of S-God the first thing to come in your mind is that:" oh hey he figured out how to instantly kill peeps somehow".
The only thing i've noticed is that SS gives you 1 more extra jump in DT form, which makes HoH run a bit faster, and we came to a conclusion that you have to make some changes to the file, while removing the run from the lbs.
Well, anyways, thanks for coming in :) Maybe, but just maybe, i'll see some good runs from your side.
You can customize exactly how many extra jumps, dashes, Air Tricks, Sky Stars, Trick Ups and Trick Downs as you want with the Style Switcher. You can essentially turn it off by setting it to normal values.
As for me doing speedruns, it's something that's been on my mind for a while but I'm not sure if I have enough free time to dedicate myself to this. Speedrunning takes a lot of time and effort and I have way more fun playing these games for style and I pretty much refuse to use items at all costs, so if I do ever make one, it would be itemless. I'm still interested in seeing how quickly the game can be finished though and I care enough about it to post here.
Can you prove that this person didn't have the mod installed? Because simply having it installed is enough.
Hmm, that's strange, because I've never seen that happen in any version of the game before the mod's release. The 2006 port, shit as it may be, never gave me any bugs that weren't already present in the PS2 version. If what you're saying is true, then is the bug occurring due to more recent operating sytems and/or faster hardware?
I don't have a clean install of the game at the moment and it would be too annoying to do so, but nothing I said was wrong. Maybe the bug is being caused not directly by the mod, but the mod may be making it more guaranteed... hmm.
Well I may as well expand on my experience with this version. Basically I played it at the time on windows XP and like pretty much everyone who played it, it ran like shit. I could barely get 60 fps on the lowest resolution setting. I'm not exactly sure at which point the modding tools (for making texture mods for example) surfaced but I reckon it was sometime the next year and I got into it fairly early on. I made a lot of skins for the game, I played the game quite extensively both on PC and PS2 (both Dante's Awakening and Special Edition) and thanks to the SS mod appearing a few years ago, I got back into playing the game on PC, as I no longer have a PS2.
I own the HDC on PS3 and of course have also the current HDC on PC with the latest version of the mod and I have played all DMC games every year, especially DMC3 and 4, for many days, weeks and months at a time. I've done perfect S rank runs, I've done Easy mode/Bloody Palace speedruns (never recorded one, just did them casually over the years), I've emulated the game as well and I've experimented with every weapon and Style combination since the game's release.
So with everything laid out with my gaming and modding experience, I can say with 100% certainty that enemies have never despawned on any version of the game, except the 2006 port and, in my experience, only happens with the mod installed. However, though it kind of goes without saying, my current PC build is wildly different from the one I had when I first started playing the PC version and while I modded the game for a long time, I also went through about 3 different PC builds in between and before the mod surfaced, I had no reason to play the game again, especially thanks to the PS3 HDC version.
And bear in mind, during all this time, I've inhabited several DMC message boards, namely Phantom Babies, Gamefaqs, Hell's Atelier and owned my own forum at one point, and I joined Infernal Works about 3 years ago and I actively browse the Steam DMC message boards too. And I've never encountered a single bug report of enemies despawning that didn't have the mod installed.
So you can see why I'm extremely doubtful of the bug existing at all without the mod.
If there IS a reason for it happening, then the cause should be identified, because it's pretty clear to me it's a recent occurrence that's gone under the radar for far too long.
Of course, if you, as moderators, simply add categories and filters, there's no need to delete any of the runs.
And if the glitch really is caused in that port regardless of the mod, this changes everything...
