Hey guys, I wanted to present my thoughts on personalizing this game's leaderboard, and I'm curious as to your thoughts as well. If the way it is presented now works for everyone, then that's fine and we can ignore this post.
Glitches Yes/No - if Glitchless is a desired category, why not a separate category rather than an option inside of any%? The glitches we have should be 30 minutes faster than glitchess, so having a separate category would give glitchless runs more shine, and let (currently) Ragleyy have 1st rather than 4th.
Game versions as separate categories - Im very sad to see differences between XBO and X360, but once PC launches, and later PS4, Im sure there will be more version differences. Here are a list of differences I've noticed between XBO and X360 for the runs -After the Prophets Tomb at the start of the game, there is a cutscene at the Croft Manor where Lara gets into a fight. X360 can skip this cutscene earlier than XBO. -After getting the pistol, X360 can clip the door, eliminating the need to reload the checkpoint. -The first cutscene after passing through the Supply Shack is not skippable on the X360 -the next few cutscenes are not skippable? (Someone on X360 confirm this for me, please) but if you exit to main menu and reload, they are now skippable. All are skippable on XBO -Copper Mill, at the end, you can clip past the final 5 enemies on X360 -The first half of the Prophet's Blessing can be skipped on X360, but the final clip needed for it is not possible on XBO -After obtaining the Shotgun, you can clip out of the fight and skip the miniboss and a handful of cutscenes on X360 -Enemy Patterns are different during the Silent Night sequence, aka less enemies on X360 -Atlas skip only possible on X360 -Research Base approach OoB as far as I can tell is X360 only
Difficulty - The difficulty used for TR2013 was Normal. We never did a run on any other difficulty. Should we establish that Normal (Tomb Raider) is the standard? Survivor does have a nice difficulty to it, but is not really that bad, so perhaps a category for that as well?
Timing - I agree with the timing as it is; Selecting Difficulty to the cutscene starting after going through the doors at the end. Does someone have another idea?
Hey, I'm quite ok with the idea of separating Glitches and Glitchless, these 2 are completely different categories that would deserve 2 different leaderboards imo.
Concerning differences between versions: I'm quite disappointed too with those differences... I don't know to what extent X360 is faster, any idea ? I'd say like 3 or 4 min maybe. But yeah, pc will probably be even faster. -ALL the cutscenes after the Supply Shack are skippable on X360 ! But, sometimes the first one is not (just like it happened in my pb) so you have to wait for the second cutscene to quit and reload so that you can skip them then. Apparently, Eydas never experienced that issue on X360. -I don't know what's going on with the patch 2 on X360 (announced to be released Dec the 14th) but either it's not available yet or either I haven't notice any difference... Just to say that Narnia skip is still doable.
Difficulty Tomb Raider/normal as a standard seems fine, knowing that we've used to run that way since TR2013.
Hey,
Well, "Tomb Raider" as the standard difficulty is fine, but it would kill a lot of runs. Especially Glitchless ones. It'll be easy to enforce it on Glitched runs since they are all played in Tomb Raider difficulty at the moment.
I also had it in mind (separated Glitchless/Glitched). I didn't want to make it too different from others TR section at the beginning, but I'll do it.
About ver. Hm.. We could just put a console ver. section and PC ver. section. I feel like it'll be loaded of section if we separate, old gen, new-gen, PC + each sections glitchless/glitched...
speedrun.com plans to give mods ability to create multiple fulll-game and IL leaderboards, which should solve the issue with too many categories.
no worries Doppie, I understand where you are coming from. Version differences are really going to suck when the other 2 are released. I'm REALLY hoping they arent much different, though. TR2013 is a mess when it comes to version differences. every version is different. PS3 and X360 are the closest.
I do vote for Tomb Raider being the standard for glitched runs at least. After playing through Survivor, there is a bit more of a difficulty spike compared to TR2013, but idk if it'll be worth it for a separate category.
You can't just let people post runs on one difficulty for console and then another for PC that makes no sense, the difficulty rule should have been set to the same from the start and yes a glitchless run regardless of what console sucks to run on Tomb Raider because most level strategies change to compensate for lack of ammo and lose A LOT of time, the nature of a speedrun is more on adventurer because you still have some difficulty but can run the game the fastest. That being said there will definitely be much less competition (which is what a community wants) as I estimate the difficulty adding a good 10-20 minutes (optimized) depending on if someone makes mistakes or not ya know?
Don't really have that much of a say in all this but whatever conclusion regarding the run layouts and respective difficulties needs to be set in stone at this point, we are approaching a point of no return with the multi-platform release where making severe changes to layouts is going to be really difficult and likely have major push-back so this needs to be decided.
Honestly I am pretty mixed on all this but I want to talk about difficulties a little bit. Originally I was leaning towards Adventurer being the standard because a speedrun should be the fastest a game can be performed and the difficulty should reflect that. However, now I am pretty much 40/60 slightly leaning in favor of the default being"Tomb Raider" difficulty.
The way I judge it is as far as benefits go is that: Adventurer: -Is the easiest and fastest difficulty setting for a run and thus is indicative of speedrunning (really can't be overstated enough honestly) -Would not reset the leaderboards (also pretty big, although considering the little amount of dedicated runners this isn't detrimental considering most would have records posted again within a week)
Tomb Raider: -Increases the skill gap a bit (opens further room for optimization) -Removes the god awful aim assist on adventurer difficulty (The amount of times I've randomly locked onto rats and birds is ridiculous, also increases skill gap slightly) -Follows the precedent of 2013 Tomb Raider where Normal difficulty was the standard (considering this is the direct sequel it makes sense it would follow suit)
What I really don't understand however, and this is coming from someone who played through Tomb Raider 2013 but never ran it, is why was the default not set to normal from the start for this game considering it was already that way for the last? If it was initially defaulted to 'Tomb Raider' and people argued that Any% should allow "Adventurer" all the previous records would still work. This whole debacle could have been so easily avoided if it had just followed the precedent of the last game.
Glitched and Glitchless should have always been separate categories (Thanks for splitting those up). Different platforms should be judged differently since there is already a ton of evidence of it affecting times I don't know the best way of organizing that though. Timing should remain from hitting the button to start new game to the double doors at the end that is fine as is.
If there is enough people running or whatever we can discuss the validity of other runs such as 100% or whatever but the difficulty thing needs to be finalized first.
Just submitted a run on Tomb Raider difficulty this time and pretty much the adjustments just ended up hoarding explosive and poison arrow materials and utilizing appropriately in some fight scenes.
As for the deathless areas it's kind of the same thing but luring them toward good fire sources to 1-2 shot them.
Can't run and gun on this difficulty so the time was definitely much higher than on adventurer and it loses the speedrun feel to it, but uh, the run is there, crazy how many differences there is between each console and PC though. I'm still mixed on which one to choose though cause faster is adventurer but higher skill cap is Tomb Raider obviously, I personally feel like if its on speedrun.com the standard should always be whats fastest and then separate categories can come into play for higher difficulties, that would make the most sense to me.
Well, the reason why (consoles) Glitchless still has those various difficulty levels is because it would be crazy to force Tomb Raider difficulty there. Most of glitchless runs were played in Adventurer in that time. I should have force it since the beginning, but we had to discuss about it first.
From my point of view, Adventurer is a ridiculous difficulty and provide a terrible aim-assist. As well as KeronianKnight, it goes in the same way as TR2013. I think Tomb Raider difficulty is fine. Not that hard and not that easy, either.
Also, we could eventually add more categories featuring adventurer or other difficulties, but it would be a mess. A complete mess, to be honest. I think this is better to have all speedrunners running on the same line.
Now, I had someone asking me about "time without and with loading times". I think, it needs to be discussed if hardwares give a real advantage or not.
I just want to say, on PC if you play with keyboard and mouse (and you want to) there isn't any auto aim, even on easiest difficulty.
And skill cap will not be defined by combat difficulties (at least on pc). As it's almost the exact same mechanics as in TR13 I'm pretty sure this game is gonna be a glitchfest. Actually that's already almost the case. And you can be sure : there will be some hard skips, like really hard. There is a reason why nobody can beat Artistic on TR13, and that's not because he's amazing in combat... And in my opinion the Big Oni battle in TR13 was one of the worst part of the speedrun.
So as PC and consoles are already different categories, I think it would be a good idea to allow PC runs on Adventurer. If you want you can add a column for difficulty if people want to run anything else but I don't really see the point.
Though, I agree : I think Tomb Raider is a better difficulty for consoles as there is no auto aim. Which is awful in this game..
I would like to see more opinions of runners about it.
But if (consoles) Glitchless in adventurer with that "aim assist" doesn't annoy anyone, then, I'll lock it to Adventurer difficulty. The leaderboard will remain unchanged on that case.
(consoles) Glitched as normal difficulty seems fine.
(PC) Glitched, considering that adventurer with a mouse/KB (i didn't try it but MoXxi said so) doesn't imply aim assist, I'm fine with it. BUT, I prefer to let it to Tomb Raider difficulty, as it was the same on TR2013 and as (consoles) glitched leaderboard. This section is pretty empty at the moment, so this is the moment for runners to voice themselves.
(PC) Glitchless, we could put it to adventurer difficulty considering there isn't aim assist. I'm fine with it then. Need approval from more runners, so we lock it for good.
The only reason TR13 was run on Normal was because of auto aim. At the beginning consoles and pc runs were almost the same, so everyone was using the same difficulty. But after some times pc became much faster and a totaly different run. But it was too late to change the rules for pc. (With kb and mouse there wasn't any auto aim either in TR13, even on easy) I think it can be different for this game.
Anyway I'll post a message on the SDA board so runners can take a look at this thread.
Being around since the beginning of TR2013 speedrunning, I actually didn't know that normal was chosen because of auto-aim. My first 4 hour run was done on Easy, but after maybe one more run I was on normal, finishing still over 3 hours. at this point it seemed everyone was on normal, so it stuck as far as I know.
there are several sections that auto aim would get in the way, although I can see us getting used to it as well. There is also the possibility that we find more skips to where that wouldn't matter. but in terms of where adventurer would give a speed advantage, I honestly can only think of 2-3 sections that it "might", and if they go perfectly in a run, it wouldnt matter. although the fight before you get the grapple swing ability, auto-aim could help there so you can shot enemies off the ropes (just a theory, haven't tested it). So in the end, yeah Adventurer could give an advantage, but it isn't that much, especially comparing top runs, in my opinion anyway. I'm willing to yield if there is a better argument for Adventurer then that. I am also okay with PC being adventurer and console on tomb raider since they seem to be different runs anyway (that really pisses me off, but I'll save it for another day)
There's also the option to just leave difficulty open to whatever you want, but my thought is that we should be on the same difficulty, especially if a Survivor category is made eventually.
In the end, Normal was the standard and that's how me and Elajjaz approached this game in November to keep it the same. Personally I'd like to keep it this way unless there is a huge advantage to playing on Adventurer. but right now it seems to be very small if anything.
idk about glitchless though. My thought's there would be hoarding resources until you really needed them, which makes it OHKO for the most part. but I really dont know.
Category vote (if you want my vote) Console glitched - Tomb Raider Console Glitchless - Adventurer as the norm, but Tomb Raider runs allowed PC Glitched - Tomb Raider PC Glitchless - Adventurer
I deleted and retract my previous comment in favor of Adventurer
Just make it Tomb Raider difficulty across the board.
Truljin just got I believe 1:58:34 or something for PC Any% on TR Difficulty, the Console Any% runs are all ran on that TR difficulty, and even the PC Glitchless guys run it on TR difficulty. Console glitchless appears to be the only category not currently following this unspoken rule which isn't fair so just make it TR difficulty.
It will invalidate almost all of the runs but it seems the most logical conclusion here. I'll adjust. If there was a more balanced discussion and more runners here who were on the fence or arguing for the easier difficulty that would be one thing but it seems console Glitchless is literally the only odd man out in this situation and there aren't many runners for this category to begin with.
And now that I've thought about it some more, if the Glitched guys are dead set on staying with Tomb Raider I am not ethically a fan of glitchless being an easier difficulty than their respected glitched runs. The whole point should be that if you take the exact same game with the same conditions and you run it with or without glitches seeing the speedrun records for each category should essentially give you an idea of the time difference glitches has on time but by introducing changes in difficulty we are adding other influencing variables.
The deathless fights at the end will be a more of a pain and the run will be longer, but we gain consistency with other run layouts, the past game, and remove auto aim :/.
Sorry for my indecisiveness.
Votes as put forward by BrassMaster Console glitched - Tomb Raider Console Glitchless - Tomb Raider PC Glitched - Tomb Raider PC Glitchless - Tomb Raider
I don't mean to rush the mods to a decision but everyone seems pretty much aligned on this issue at this point.
Like literally everyone who comments on these RoTR forums or actively speedruns this game has commented at this point bar Ragleyy. Who has seemingly given up on Glitchless and moved to PC Any% so this decision doesn't even affect him now its solely just me. I am seemingly the last console Glitchless runner.
So yea this looks pretty finalized.
Also its going to be hilarious for the 1 day after the leaderboards are wiped were the record for Console Glitchless is 11 hours that guy is going to be so happy.
Also, this game seems to getting more and more popular and it's going to be hard for one mod to handle runs and stuff, should there be more mods added?
PC runners, at the time being, the best idea would be to downpatch the game to b1026, as load remover and autosplitter don't work on the newest patch. Runs that don't use load remover will not be manually re-timed. You can easily do that in Steam Options by right clicking on the game in the Steam L
