I'd appreciate it if we could get some further clarification from the MODs, concerning my previous question, for Pop1 SNES Warp category.
RTA rules clearly states that timing begins on the first active frame. But the current #1 record for this category is starting later, after the player has played the game for a little bit, and performed some necessary tricks to prevent the level 8 warp from freezing the game. Then, after they've done some early tricks, they start level one from a later time, and not the original state, and not from the first active frame.
If you don't have to show the setup before the warp, as a part of the run, then I'm about to submit a sub-18 minute run, and let everyone wonder how I set it up.
[edit #1 -- I have edited this post to single out the #1 record. -- I have confirmed on my console that Zotmeister's #2 record is legitimate, and was correctly performed, recorded, and timed.]
[edit #2 -- MODs have updated rules, and top submission has been redone to comply.]
Well, I think we're on the same page. I must offer my congratulations to you for discovering that technique to immediately warp without the need for intermediary "buffer" glitches, which I had previously failed to discover. As a reward, I'll offer you a tip. I've discovered your technique, and I'll avoid spelling it out, since you avoided doing so. But I'll offer you an improvement. If, instead of jumping directly into the wall, and doing the warp in a total of 5.5 seconds, you were to spend an extra 6 seconds to do the following alternate warp entry, you will find the Prince (and the guards) to be completely visible on level 8, which is a moderate help in traversing the invisible level -- it may even help enough to save more than 6 seconds. You can run to the edge, turn & climb down the hole and back up again, twice, and then turn and run off the edge, and exit on the last frame. This spacing, a bit further away from the wall, will avoid turning the Prince into a mirage of bricks.
Anyway, I'm in agreement with you that the other guy's video needs to be redone. He obviously had another minute or two of game-play to corrupt his sprite and "loosen up" the level 8 warp, and that time should be counted against him.
However, I wouldn't call the player a cheat. I would just say that the category has not been properly enforced, and as such, the player has not been made properly aware of the exact particulars, as far as determining the official time is concerned.
I'll also put your mind at ease by letting you know that in the near future, I may consider putting all my individual level performances together, and submit a sub-20 record that will make the other guy's video irrelevant. lol.
A few responses to your comments:
I think it's basically unnecessary to provide any proof that you haven't cheated or entered codes, because the video itself really proves whether or not you used or took advantage of any extra-curricular cheats. The Warp Glitch fairly well speaks for itself, and by this time, it's common knowledge that the only tool needed here is the Kill Button, which is automatically unlocked by the glitch. Unfortunately, another cool time-saving tool is the Sound Menu, which, after performing a warp glitch, cannot be accessed via START+SELECT again until after Debug Code is input. I thought it might be an interesting discussion to consider the possibility of allowing Debug Menu for the purposes of accessing Sound Menu. It's easy enough to verify, by watching the video, that Level Jump and Health Boost were not used once Debug Menu is reactivated.
The Console Reset Button is another interesting topic. Some of the cool setups I've discovered do require a console setup. And I've had to create work-arounds to avoid the reset button (which take longer), to ensure that a non-reset version is available for use, in case of rules limitations, etc. Personally, I think Reset Button should definitely be allowed for speedruns, and it's just up to the player to decide whether or not it's worth it to spend the extra 25 seconds waiting for the Title Screen. I definitely agree that all game-play involved in the setup should be counted against you, including optional console reset.
I'm glad you joined the speedrun forum for this little discussion. I'm sure you'll be quite surprised to see what I have in store for this category. If you want a sneak peak, you can check out the TAS Forum discussion, linked here in the SNES Warp Rules, and skip ahead to page 6, where I've posted a litany of hand-made glitch videos on my console, as well as complete speedrun videos for the individual levels 6 thru 20, with some cool comparison videos.
I edited my original post to single out the #1 record, and confirm that your record has been correctly documented.
However, I would offer a possible correction. I think you stopped the timer at the wrong place. I think we're supposed to count time until the first frame of the Princess's Bedroom, not earlier when the Prince touches the finish line in level 20.
Hello.
First of all, I'm not a mod for this game but I am a mod for the PoP series as a whole. I'm not all too knowledgeable about this run so please bear with me. I wanted to talk about a few things regarding this thread and in particular your messages Zotmeister.
The current WR is no subject to cheating and it's not right to call the runner a cheater as he does not violate the rules in its current (and maybe soon: previous) form. Do the rules need a change? Perhaps, and it's a valid point to discuss the matter. But badmouthing someone like you did is no means courteous behaviour so please refrain from doing something like this in the future. Even if the rules change and the current WR becomes invalid, this would not mean that there was any form of cheating involved.
You said you sent a message to a mod--which mod was it? Also did you try to talk to another mod afterwards? There are multiple mods for all active PoP games for a reason and there are also the series mods as last resort. In general we're talking about all of this among the community--so if the mod argued with you that's great because you can address your request and possibly change things as you think best. There wasn't--and I hope there won't be--any onesided decision in the history of PoP speedrunning. The subject of this thread is currently being discussed by all the mods in the PoP community.
If something is amiss, please talk to us about it open-mindedly. Nobody is keeping you away from the community. Our discord as well as all possible communication with me personally are public so you can come and talk to me. It's the same thing regarding your method to do the warp. Even if I don't like the fact that you're not sharing it--as I believe speedrunning is all about sharing and enjoying discoveries with others people--it is your right to do so. You don't have to shut yourself off in any way. Speedrunning is all about cooperative work and it's the same for leaderboard rules. You have a draft of what you think the rules should be and you're a runner of the game so it's a valid thing to send it to a mod and initiate a discussion.
To summarize: it's unfortunate that your message is aggressive and rather crude because your point is a valid subject of discussion. To not pollute this thread any further, my DM on twitter as well as on discord are open to pursue this discussion further (with me or any other mod).
Have a nice day and we will keep this thread updated with any changes that may or may not occur.
thank you 7eraser7, thank you Zotmeister for calling me a cheater, when I ask you for help with the glitch that you made me understand that you did not want to help me, my race is very legit, I do not cheat and start again do not save time, the only exception to start again is that level 8 is back to normal with the exception of the prince
Thanks, 7eraser7. I would note that zotmeister was not being aggressive, but defensive. I had called his run into question, as well as Skinomarsh's, and he needed to offer clarification. I think we understand now, the difference between the two runs.
Skinomarsh's mistake was in trying to imitate the form of zotmeister's video, by just starting with the warp. Now that we have discussed the difference, I think we are in a good position to start making the rules more clear.
Zotmeister, while the rules are being discussed, I would offer a counter-argument to when the time should stop. The general idea of the rule is to pick a spot that is the same for everyone, and can be visually confirmed with a frame count. I think that the "finish line" is not a good place to end, because it's basically an audio confirmation as to when the music starts.
With some sprites, or positions, the Prince can be concealed for 1 or 2 more frames of animation behind the curtain before the music is initialized. And when the music starts, the flame is still flickering. So there really is no visual confirmation there, to cover every scenario.
Next, in all other levels, the game clock is still ticking, and game control (accessing menus, pausing) is still available while the music is playing, and for those levels, speedrun time for individual levels would not end on the frame you push "up" to go into the Exit Doorway.
On level 20, you can access the "Select Menu" after the Prince has reached the finish line, to pause game clock, for the purpose of achieving "0:00" time on Best Times for level 20. So in that instance, you are still intentionally playing the game after the Prince touches the finish line.
All these tell me that, dispite this version of the game being different from the others, it still seems appropriate to me for the time to end on the first frame of the Princess Bedroom, when control is truly lost, and a visual confirmation of frame count can be made.
We can't use the music for accurate time, because there might be a slight audio sync issue for some people. And otherwise, using a human hand to manually stop a clock when the music plays is not accurate, even to 0.1 seconds.
All this is to say that I think the rule should be left as is, for the Princess Bedroom, and that you should recalculate your time.
the time is perfect or it stops and all the runner stops the time at this moment, no need to change his, I invite you to listen to my new WR when it will be approved, you will not be able to say that I am a cheater
To restate our opinion for the MODs, Zot & I believe the rules should clearly explain that the speedrun must begin the first time you start a "New Game" from power-on. You cannot start a game, do some warps, exit, and then begin the run on another "New Game" later. All game-play intended to alter the status of things, to make the wrong warps work the way you want them to, should be counted as a part of the speedrun time.
Really, though, the only way to verify that this rule is followed, is if the MOD approving the submission is familiar with how the warps work. Experts like myself & Zot would immediately be able to tell if a player left out some extra steps, if the warp behaves differently than expected. As I said, all warps speak for themselves, in that anyone can turn on a console or emulator, and attempt to do the exact same trick they see in the video. If the video is different from what the player can recreate, then it's possible a step was left out, and the speedrun is incomplete (and invalid).
I'll leave it to you, Zotmeister; but I think for the integrity and consistency of the category, we should explain your technique -- if not publicly, then at least to the MODs in private, so they can understand on sight what is happening when a new guy submits a run.
Skinomarsh, we are not calling you a cheater anymore. I understand your English is difficult, and I've been talking too much. On behalf of Zot, we offer an apology for the sharp words. You made a mistake by leaving out a step, and the MODs made a mistake by not making the rules clear. We are in the process of fixing that.
Your run is very good, and you may be able to figure out Zot's technique, or add a small amount of time to show the way you make the warp work best for you.
We look forward to seeing your new video.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have updated the SNES (Warp) rules in accordance with the proposed ideas (or so I believe). This does of course not mean that it can't be subject to possible further changes.
thank you, I have a small mistake but it was a good race, I do not think the sub 24 is possible, maybe with a new strat or a glitch , I can not wait to see your run Akuma (i know , my english is bad , i speak french) ;)
Skino, I have to tell you, my old individual level runs (levels 8 thru 20) from 4 months ago add up to about 21 minutes. I say 4 months ago, because I've spent the last 3 months perfecting my "Gate Thief" videos, which follow a different path. I've been watching the seconds fall away like leaves from a tree. You will be shocked when you see how much time you are wasting on each level.
It actually is amazing how much time you save with small changes. I expect that if I spend a month practicing the regular path (from your video), I will be safely below 21.5 minutes total, and maybe very close to 21 minutes for the record.
I recommend that you study Challenger's TAS, and employ more discipline in your runs. There's a ton of time to be saved.
When you take away the guards with Kill Button, about 95% of the tricks used in the TAS are very easy and usable. It's just a matter of practice and memory.
it is possible to do better, but with very difficult strategies to perform in the run, if you succeed within 21 minutes, I will be the first to congratulate you.
